Xr6t BA vs ls1.... Both unopened

Which is likely to be quicker over the quarter mile?

A ba xr6t unopened or a ls1 both auto or both manual?

Ba xr6t if they don't open them and do valve springs they don't make any more than 250rwkw and they are pretty heavy. With stock valve springs they can't run more than about 10-12psi. Diff gears don't relly help turbo xr6t but they can run injectors, pump, cooler and tune. Prob run high 12s at best without opening them

Where ls1 can wind out 230-240 Rwkw unopened and can run diff gears, plus most ls1 cars are lighter..

What do we think here? Both cars with a decent converter in the auto?

I'm leaning towards the ls1 if both cars remain unopened?

Flame suit on..:flamin:

If the valve springs play nice ,or assume we can use 10-12 psi , XR6T hands down

valve springs are one of the first things changed in either motor though, and generally isn't classified as an opened motor.

If valve springs aren't included in the 'unopened' classification the xr6t can get into the 10's with the right tune. Believe it's doing 9.97's now but not sure if the bottom end is still standard.

10.3 stock bottom ba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHraj_47CTE

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Originally Posted by 185iboy

If valve springs aren't included in the 'unopened' classification the xr6t can get into the 10's with the right tune. Believe it's doing 9.97's now but not sure if the bottom end is still standard.

10.3 stock bottom ba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHraj_47CTE

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I highly doubt that is stock bottom end the ford 4 litre turbo motor whilst can pull good figures in particular a BA the weak point is the con rods for the amount of power and boost it would need to run that number the stock rods will snap

Memories......... :D

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Originally Posted by APS Luis

Flame suit on..:flamin:

If the valve springs play nice ,or assume we can use 10-12 psi , XR6T hands down

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We have discussed this and with first hand experience even with higher klm motors you could see better figures on standard valvesprings. Throw injectors on and keep pushing until valve float prevails and you would easily see shy of 400rwhp, valvesprings in and would sit around that no worries, even with factory cooler/intake ;)

The let down with the falcons is the tall first gear, they really need a converter whereas the commodores get away a bit better with std gearing/converter.

Ahh, good old memory lane for me...I had a BA mk 2 XR6 Turbo manual. Took it to get a tune done and they advised valve springs and injectors. So after a nice tune and some new springs it went from 207rwkw to 278rwkw on 10-12 psi, not bad for just a tune, injectors and valve springs if you ask me.

Never took it to the quarter mile but I kept that car up until 2011 with only little problems and regular servicing and it definitely still today was one of my favorite cars I have owned. Was a awesome car to drive on a cold winters night up in the Blue Mountains...

Valve springs are definately an OPENED mod.

So no valve springs for XR6T. So for a BA, the valve springs float before 250rwkw.

Then I cant see them beating a unopened LS1.

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Originally Posted by Solone

Valve springs are definately an OPENED mod.

So no valve springs for XR6T. So for a BA, the valve springs float before 250rwkw.

Then I cant see them beating a unopened LS1.

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Open a rocker cover, open a door, open a beer.......Tomato/tomato - potato/potato

Pulling heads is to me anyway opening a motor, make it fair and say both motors have new standard springs in them, the XR turbos will still make higher numbers, and I've seen a few now make north of 250 with standard springs

You can replace valve springs without opening the engine...

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Originally Posted by IJ.

You can replace valve springs without opening the engine...

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Exactly my point, some will argue. My view is you are not accessing the combustion chamber, much the same with throwing a set of rod bolts in. It's insurance and tbh if you want to debate enough then I'd say forced induction is bolt on and would make the stakes even higher

Some fairly basic maths and a lot of assumptions, springs ignored, etc.

LS1 = 5.7Lt

XR6 = 4.0Lt (NA). Assume 5PSI of boost and the engine will "consume" 5.33Lt of air. Take that assumption to 10PSI and the motor now consumes 6.66 Lt of air

Boosted motors also tend to hold their torque peak longer giving more "under the curve".

Without getting into the efficiencies of combustion chambers and over all motor design, the more air/fuel you can shove into a motor, the more power you will make. In the end it comes down to the "Power to Weight" ratio and the available grip. How far do you want to take the comparison?

My bf xr6 turbo 6 auto is a hell of a lot quicker than my ve afm ssv. In fact there it is even more obvious during roll on acceleration

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Originally Posted by lumina ss

My bf xr6 turbo 6 auto is a hell of a lot quicker than my ve afm ssv. In fact there it is even more obvious during roll on acceleration

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That's bringing a machine gun to a knuckle fight....

p.s."OUR" BA with a std convertor and diff managed low 1.8 60"

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Originally Posted by lumina ss

My bf xr6 turbo 6 auto is a hell of a lot quicker than my ve afm ssv. In fact there it is even more obvious during roll on acceleration

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maybe with a fair amount of boost but stock for stock?

I drove them back to back and the VE SS more than held its own, might have been slightly quicker.

But this is about BA XR6T and LS1. Generally cars you can get under $12-15k

I drive them both every day the ford is quicker above 20 k/mh the Holden below

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Originally Posted by swingtan

Some fairly basic maths and a lot of assumptions, springs ignored, etc.

LS1 = 5.7Lt

XR6 = 4.0Lt (NA). Assume 5PSI of boost and the engine will "consume" 5.33Lt of air. Take that assumption to 10PSI and the motor now consumes 6.66 Lt of air

Boosted motors also tend to hold their torque peak longer giving more "under the curve".

?

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not really... turbo doesnt come on until 3000rpm and its all over by 5800rpm.

LS1 grunts harder under 3000rpm, has better gear ratios and is happy to rev out to 6500rpm.

You analagy would be fair if the XR6T always made the boost ie 10psi at 2000rpm and held it to 6500rpm.. which it dont.

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Originally Posted by peter b

I highly doubt that is stock bottom end the ford 4 litre turbo motor whilst can pull good figures in particular a BA the weak point is the con rods for the amount of power and boost it would need to run that number the stock rods will snap

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I know that he's been working at it for a couple of years he's one of the best if not the best backyard xr6t tuner. If it was a built motor he would've run numbers straight off the bat not working 10th's off since 2009

How much is the budget ?

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Originally Posted by Solone

not really... turbo doesnt come on until 3000rpm and its all over by 5800rpm.

LS1 grunts harder under 3000rpm, has better gear ratios and is happy to rev out to 6500rpm.

You analagy would be fair if the XR6T always made the boost ie 10psi at 2000rpm and held it to 6500rpm.. which it dont.

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Ok ,I tune both - so gimme a chance !

We need some "rules"

In the chasing the "unopened" title days , there wouldn't have been 1 single LS1 that didn't have mafless tune & valve springs as a minimum.

So , opened / unopened - what's allowed?

Are we comparing tuned cars or straight off the factory floor ?
Are we keeping this 'BA' XR6T vs LS1 or allowing BF ?

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Originally Posted by APS Luis

Ok ,I tune both - so gimme a chance !

We need some "rules"

In the chasing the "unopened" title days , there wouldn't have been 1 single LS1 that didn't have mafless tune & valve springs as a minimum.

So , opened / unopened - what's allowed?

Are we comparing tuned cars or straight off the factory floor ?
Are we keeping this 'BA' XR6T vs LS1 or allowing BF ?

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Let's keep it to ba xr6t vs ls1.... No valve springs, no opening rocket cover. Bolt ons and tune. Basic mods that most people will stop at.

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Originally Posted by Solone

Let's keep it to ba xr6t vs ls1.... No valve springs, no opening rocket cover. Bolt ons and tune. Basic mods that most people will stop at.

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SO - We compare LS1 VY to BA Mk1

LS1 path to HP - extractors/ cats , cai , tune = 235 to 255 rwkw
N/A so no need for bigger injectors , factory valve springs are generally no problem to 6500 rpm
Take it to the track : Auto 3.07 diff , unless it has a stall convertor and/or diff gears it will run mid/ low 13

BA XR6T path to HP - boost! depending at what stage the valve springs stop closing the valves, a std BA will handle anywhere from 8 psi to 12 psi ( very dependent on age/km's) - hence this is one of the main things in the list.
240 odd kw is the upper limit on std injectors , so that is normally the first thing to change. For peace of mind , in-tank walbro pump & 60lb injectors . Big power gains from E85 on these , so that's another easy "bolt on" ( 60lb injectors no problem on E85 to 300+ rwkw)
So assume we run 8 psi
Take it to the track : Auto has 3.46 diff , hold it on the handbrake to build boost for launch , will run a high 12/ low 13

fit some valve springs , Cat back exhaust , bigger intercooler , torque convertor - up the boost to 12-13 psi - 11 sec car

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Originally Posted by APS Luis

SO - We compare LS1 VY to BA Mk1

LS1 path to HP - extractors/ cats , cai , tune = 235 to 255 rwkw
N/A so no need for bigger injectors , factory valve springs are generally no problem to 6500 rpm
Take it to the track : Auto 3.07 diff , unless it has a stall convertor and/or diff gears it will run mid/ low 13

BA XR6T path to HP - boost! depending at what stage the valve springs stop closing the valves, a std BA will handle anywhere from 8 psi to 12 psi ( very dependent on age/km's) - hence this is one of the main things in the list.
240 odd kw is the upper limit on std injectors , so that is normally the first thing to change. For peace of mind , in-tank walbro pump & 60lb injectors . Big power gains from E85 on these , so that's another easy "bolt on" ( 60lb injectors no problem on E85 to 300+ rwkw)
So assume we run 8 psi
Take it to the track : Auto has 3.46 diff , hold it on the handbrake to build boost for launch , will run a high 12/ low 13

fit some valve springs , Cat back exhaust , bigger intercooler , torque convertor - up the boost to 12-13 psi - 11 sec car

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it does seem that the valve springs on the BA XR6T is the deal breaker. diff gears will add nothing for the XR6T but make a big difference on the LS1.

I beg to differ on diff gears, desperately need to shorten 1st gear and even with converter no need to labour the thing to boost get it there and happy days. Again speaking from mucking around with these things.

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Originally Posted by zorro

I beg to differ on diff gears, desperately need to shorten 1st gear and even with converter no need to labour the thing to boost get it there and happy days. Again speaking from mucking around with these things.

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Check out www.xr6turbo.com.au, many guys on XR6Ts have tried the diff gears without any success. The load on the turbo is less with more mechanical advantage of diff gears, so spool time is increased and it dont spool as hard.... Some even go backwards with Rwkw. By the time the turbo spools up the revs are too high and its time to change up to next gear, so rpm range is less too. More load and more rpm range from the stock diff gears is the reason why the turbos go no quicker with diff gears.

how many ls1 turbos run the 3.9 gears? same issue here, these guys usually go back to 3.46 to even 3.08s.

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Originally Posted by APS Luis

SO - We compare LS1 VY to BA Mk1

LS1 path to HP - extractors/ cats , cai , tune = 235 to 255 rwkw
N/A so no need for bigger injectors , factory valve springs are generally no problem to 6500 rpm
Take it to the track : Auto 3.07 diff , unless it has a stall convertor and/or diff gears it will run mid/ low 13

BA XR6T path to HP - boost! depending at what stage the valve springs stop closing the valves, a std BA will handle anywhere from 8 psi to 12 psi ( very dependent on age/km's) - hence this is one of the main things in the list.
240 odd kw is the upper limit on std injectors , so that is normally the first thing to change. For peace of mind , in-tank walbro pump & 60lb injectors . Big power gains from E85 on these , so that's another easy "bolt on" ( 60lb injectors no problem on E85 to 300+ rwkw)
So assume we run 8 psi
Take it to the track : Auto has 3.46 diff , hold it on the handbrake to build boost for launch , will run a high 12/ low 13

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Hey Luis, with that example I think you are spending more money on the XR6T....
I reckon for the same money you are spending on the XR6T you could fit a stallie and a set of 3.9 diff gears
(or even on a budget some used 3.46 gears to just be on equal terms?)
Then the VY LS1 will run into the 12's also ;)

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Originally Posted by whitels1ss

Hey Luis, with that example I think you are spending more money on the XR6T....
I reckon for the same money you are spending on the XR6T you could fit a stallie and a set of 3.9 diff gears
(or even on a budget some used 3.46 gears to just be on equal terms?)
Then the VY LS1 will run into the 12's also ;)

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should look at it on equal dollars spent..

So full exhaust/intake/tune is about same cost on both sides..

if we go injectors and fuel pump on the xr6T then go diff gears on the LS1.. We have an evenly matched car wouldnt you say?

I think its only when XR6T gets valve springs that it starts to step away, but at this cost, LS1 gets a cam. :)

ive driven my mates xr6t ba auto tuned. It had valvespring float at 212rwkw. Goes great when boost kicks in but nothing at the start. Doesnt even chirp tyres off the line. We did a rolling start in 2nd gear from 60 kmh and mine killed it and pulled away. Mines got 3.46 hsv exhaust and otr maffless tune. didnt cost me too much as i sourced parts second hand. The SS is alot more fun on the street. Not sure what the results would be if he changed his valvesprings and pump about 240rwkw.

Guess it comes down to what your happy with either a Ford 250 6cyl Taxi with a baby snail attached or a Holden with a 346 V8 Chevy NA. I know what I prefer!!

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Originally Posted by whitels1ss

Hey Luis, with that example I think you are spending more money on the XR6T....
I reckon for the same money you are spending on the XR6T you could fit a stallie and a set of 3.9 diff gears
(or even on a budget some used 3.46 gears to just be on equal terms?)
Then the VY LS1 will run into the 12's also ;)

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It'd be close - can do the math if you want

@ Micks - LOL

Some of us bleed red , some bleed blue

...I bleed "purple" !

I had a rolling race against a mates stock G6E Turbo. My ute at the time was maffless with 3.9's. Got hosed hard by the barge.

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Originally Posted by Micks

...or a Holden with a 346 V8 Chevy NA...

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Why did you remove your GM LS1 and fit a Chev?

*opens another can of worms*

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Originally Posted by Souljah

I had a rolling race against a mates stock G6E Turbo. My ute at the time was maffless with 3.9's. Got hosed hard by the barge.

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Not surprised. G6ET runs a 5 second 0-100 stock. There also is a huge difference between BA's and FG's.

I haven't seen one of these threads since i owned a BA XR6T!! I bought mine as a demo, and with a tune, injectors, intank walbro, intercooler upgrade and hi flow cat it made 304rwkw. Some time later, at a Gentech dyno day, it pulled ~289rwkw with the same mods. Tune only, it made 250rwkw.

Total cost of mods was about $3500... Awesome bang for buck. Valve springs were fine, boost was dialled in quite hard at 12-15psi and backed off significantly higher in the rev range.

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Originally Posted by APS Luis

It'd be close - can do the math if you want

@ Micks - LOL

Some of us bleed red , some bleed blue

...I bleed "purple" !

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Luis, just a man & I don't bleed! never been keen on Cabs let alone aspirated ones!!!

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Originally Posted by Souljah

Why did you remove your GM LS1 and fit a Chev?

*opens another can of worms*

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Thanks!! I think but not sure what your smoking Boss???

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Originally Posted by lumina ss

My bf xr6 turbo 6 auto is a hell of a lot quicker than my ve afm ssv. In fact there it is even more obvious during roll on acceleration

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Stock vs Stock VE SS is faster every day of the week! The BA/BF very rarely pulled 0-100km/h in under 6.0sec whereas the VE manages it quite easily. FG is another story!

Mate i think he's telling you his BF XR6 is quicker

if you pick all the facts out of this thread...or you could pull your head out from under a rock..... you would know the 4.0t motors are the new street kings. No offense but if you have to ask you havnt been in this game for long. Bassically anything on the street with a ford badge and a little T badge....high chance its modded and therefore will eat you...unless you've spent double what he has. Its the truth and it hurts :(