Holden Billions in subsidies from Australian Goverment revealed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-0...sidies/4604558

My Take on this is that all countries do this to support their automotive companies and the many people who work in and around the industry.

Question, If car manufacturing would stop tommorrow would we end up with cheaper new cars
-OR-
Would we end up lik NZ and get totally ripped ?

(Personally i hope two local car manufactures will stick it out, Holden & Toyota as least it we keep a few local suppliers going).

I think the entire industry has received a lot more than that in the last few years (when you include Ford, Toyota etc) A LOT more.

Disgusting IMO. My brother just took the family manufacturing business to Sri Lanka due to the impossibility of actually doing anything in this over-priced country and now employs 200 people there. He would have loved a handout I am sure. Ultimately it is about the government keeping its union mates happy. Picking winners (choosing one industry to receive taxpayer funds while another does not) doesn't make sense and it almost always leads to a gross misallocation of resources and investment.

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Originally Posted by Vulture

I think the entire industry has received a lot more than that in the last few years (when you include Ford, Toyota etc) A LOT more.

Disgusting IMO. My brother just took the family manufacturing business to Sri Lanka due to the impossibility of actually doing anything in this over-priced country and now employs 200 people there. He would have loved a handout I am sure. Ultimately it is about the government keeping its union mates happy. Picking winners (choosing one industry to receive taxpayer funds while another does not) doesn't make sense and it almost always leads to a gross misallocation of resources and investment.

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And that's the problem, Vulture. We picked a winner in the car industry back in the 1940s. And it was a very good decision back then for many different reasons. We backed it with major protection - effective subsidies. However, we didn't withdraw the barriers when it was performing strongly in the 60s and 70s, to force it to become more efficient and to compete. Instead we waited until the competition was beating it and it was already struggling. Ever since then it has been a matter of chasing it to the cemetery with a bag of cash in hand. Would it survive without the life support? Doubt it. Should we be subsidising tiny manufacturers (in world car industry terms) in a mature industry, where there are much larger and very aggressively expanding players, with hugely better cost bases and vastly better product ranges than us. Probably not.

If we used the same logic, we would be subsidising extensively the TCF industry, the making of electrical appliances and TVs, building of cargo ships and so on. With a strange distorted logic, we invest, or rather sink, money into industries we don't have an advantage in and with little hope of survival and more so strong growth, but cast adrift industries that we have an edge for and with strong growth potential. Dumb really.

Two of the four manufacturers have left but become more profitable as importers. No-one would consider entering here as a manufacturer now or building a car new plant. Does it need to be more obvious than that?

Personally I see Holden through the eyes of an enthusiast rather than an accountant. It's cultural significance is enormous and it remains probably the world's greatest display of Australian engineering talent. As far as the business case goes, a large part of the problem is the death of the traditional Aussie qualities of loyalty, humility, pragmatism and the more united, less competitive culture of bygone decades.

When everyone is driving generic, overstyled 4 cylinder Chinese and European cars the world over I will say 'I told you so'. ;)

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Originally Posted by Troutman

Personally I see Holden through the eyes of an enthusiast rather than an accountant. It's cultural significance is enormous and it remains probably the world's greatest display of Australian engineering talent. As far as the business case goes, a large part of the problem is the death of the traditional Aussie qualities of loyalty, humility, pragmatism and the more united, less competitive culture of bygone decades.

When everyone is driving generic, overstyled 4 cylinder Chinese and European cars the world over I will say 'I told you so'. ;)

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Agree ... No kidding, The latest appliances Toyota Corolla vs Hyuandai almost look the same from the back.
I think from consumers to just about everyone else has lost interest - few 'car' people only left at work the rest buy on colour and price.

Thats why i bought a Volt to experiance something radically different, sad there is no EV Plug in Commodore to buy - but at least Holden made a killing thus far on My Volt imported from the US LOL!

Im pissed they spent 10 mil of that on footy sponsorship, FFS times must be tough.

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Originally Posted by Troutman

it remains probably the world's greatest display of Australian engineering talent.

When everyone is driving generic, overstyled 4 cylinder Chinese and European cars the world over I will say 'I told you so'. ;)

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Engineering talent.....hmmm, doing what other people can do better and more profitably, and much more attractively to the buyer? I think I would rather boast about things like the Cochlear implant, our agricultural developments, our high-end Defence systems capability, our CSIRO patents around wireless and a hundred other things, because frankly, we haven't done anything world beating in car manufacturing since...............hmmmm.

VW Golf GTi and R, R36, Porsche of almost any model, Toyota 86, Subaru WRX, Lexus IS-F and LFA, GTR, BMW M3, M5 or various others, Renault Megane RS250 or Clio, Veloster Turbo, yes I guess the Euros and Japanese and Koreans soon the Chinese will never make anything worth driving.

BTW, ever been to the Shanghai Motor Show? When you have, come back and tell us what you think. Your eyes will be opened, very wide.

Just don't let facts get in the way of a bad argument.

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Originally Posted by Troutman

Personally I see Holden through the eyes of an enthusiast rather than an accountant. It's cultural significance is enormous and it remains probably the world's greatest display of Australian engineering talent. As far as the business case goes, a large part of the problem is the death of the traditional Aussie qualities of loyalty, humility, pragmatism and the more united, less competitive culture of bygone decades.

When everyone is driving generic, overstyled 4 cylinder Chinese and European cars the world over I will say 'I told you so'. ;)

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Unfortunately enthusiasts don't pay the bills as they are the minority.. Thats just business.

Its sad that one day our chosen style of car will be gone, but it is what it is. Hold on to your classics.

$2.1 billion over 12 years. that's nothing.

Holden has paid 1.4 billion in taxes, plus taxes for direct holden employees, and indirect jobs generated from the automotive industry, I'd say the government has come out on top...

And in 10 years when our mines are not experiencing a massive but temporary boom and we have abandoned every other large industry what will we do? Do we let large chunks of Australia turn into Detroit? Once the car industry is gone it is gone forever and the social costs might make the current subsidies look cheap. Other countries heavily subsidise their car industry because they see the benefits in keeping people employed. Maybe we should contemplate the risks of putting all our long term economic prospects into one basket too.

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Originally Posted by Party Pete

And in 10 years when our mines are not experiencing a massive but temporary boom and we have abandoned every other large industry what will we do? Do we let large chunks of Australia turn into Detroit? Once the car industry is gone it is gone forever and the social costs might make the current subsidies look cheap. Other countries heavily subsidise their car industry because they see the benefits in keeping people employed. Maybe we should contemplate the risks of putting all our long term economic prospects into one basket too.

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We will become just like Nauru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru

[' Nauru boasted the highest per-capita income enjoyed by any sovereign state in the world during the late 1960s and early 1970s. When the phosphate reserves were exhausted, and the environment had been seriously harmed by mining, the trust that had been established to manage the island's wealth diminished in value. To earn income, Nauru briefly became a tax haven and illegal money laundering centre. From 2001 to 2008, it accepted aid from the Australian Government in exchange for housing the Nauru detention centre.']

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Originally Posted by Jac001

We will become just like Nauru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru

[' Nauru boasted the highest per-capita income enjoyed by any sovereign state in the world during the late 1960s and early 1970s. When the phosphate reserves were exhausted, and the environment had been seriously harmed by mining, the trust that had been established to manage the island's wealth diminished in value. To earn income, Nauru briefly became a tax haven and illegal money laundering centre. From 2001 to 2008, it accepted aid from the Australian Government in exchange for housing the Nauru detention centre.']

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I suggest you have a look at where Australia makes it money, including its export dollars. Service industries are up there, education is a very big earner, tourism etc. We earn lots of money from agriculture, food, professional services, and many more. CSIRO is a significant earner form licensing patents. Mining earns lots of money, even when here is no boom going on. Manufacturing, particularly commodity products, is really not that big in our economy.

As a high cost, high technology and highly educated country, there are much better places to invest our dollars.

Unless, of course, you would like to be a low wage, low conditions, low wealth country with lousy services, poor hospitals, etc etc. Fancy a 40% wage cut like the Greeks anyone? And 15-25% unemployment to push wages even lower? How about a dive of 50% in the dollar so Holden can export more Commodores, the imports get much dearer and that TV becomes $3,000 again instead of $1,000?

I thought not.

There has to be some compromises between making some people rich but putting others on the trash heap. Unfortunately many people will not be able to share in these great riches that economic rationalism predicts. A per capita income doesn't mean that everyone shares the wealth. And no, I am a long way from a left wing communist but I also don't believe in the idea that we should all simply let markets run the world and hang the consequences for those who for whatever reason happen to be on the wrong end of where that takes us. Alternatively, if you want a simple economic argument, all those people you put on the dole will no longer be paying taxes but will be collecting welfare which means that taxes have to increase for those earning the greater riches while services have to be reduced. The assumption which is often made is that people will simply find new employment in new industries but this is a big assumption.

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Originally Posted by powerd

I suggest you have a look at where Australia makes it money, including its export dollars. Service industries are up there, education is a very big earner, tourism etc. We earn lots of money from agriculture, food, professional services, and many more. CSIRO is a significant earner form licensing patents. Mining earns lots of money, even when here is no boom going on. Manufacturing, particularly commodity products, is really not that big in our economy.

As a high cost, high technology and highly educated country, there are much better places to invest our dollars.

Unless, of course, you would like to be a low wage, low conditions, low wealth country with lousy services, poor hospitals, etc etc. Fancy a 40% wage cut like the Greeks anyone? And 15-25% unemployment to push wages even lower? How about a dive of 50% in the dollar so Holden can export more Commodores, the imports get much dearer and that TV becomes $3,000 again instead of $1,000?

I thought not.

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I find it funny you equate the low of the standard of living with protecting the manufacturing industry when the exact opposite has been shown time and time against throught history. The industrial revolution is what made Western europe strong, it was the manufacturing industry that made the US a world power in the mid 1940 onwards. Would china economy and standard of living be rising if it wasn't investing in manufacturing?


Lets look at some facts:

in 2011
Manufacturing made up 12 % of GDP
Tourism is 2.5%
Agriculture makes up 3%

The idea that Australian manufacturing (everything not just Automotive) isn't that big is a falacy.

When large manufactuers fall smaller manufactuers fall with them, there is a terrible domino effect that occurs.


Lets look at exports then:

in 2009 car exports made up 0.83% of total export earnings.
Do know what the export earning were for fresh food (just fresh fruit and veg) that year? 0.35 %

How much of export earnings are made up from Mining/ resources? just over 60%! ($185B of $263B total) What do you think will happen when the the ore/ gas and oil are all sent overseas and there is nothing left in the ground? it might not happen today or next week, but at some point we know it will.

Investment into the country:

The CSIRO gets about $500m from non government sources each year and the government addes spend $700m to their budget on top of that.

For Holden to get most of the $2.2B they had to invest 3 x that amount (~$.6.5B) or around $500m/yr (on average) (under howard and Rudd before the rules where changed under gillard which is where most of the money was obtained).

Both of them bring about the same amount of money into the country each year, but in Holdens case the tax payer spends $150M/ yr to bring it in, where as the CSIRO the tax payer has to spend $700m/ yr to get the same money coming into Australia.

I find it funny you mention Greece. Before ww2, It used to have a moderately strong (non-automotive) manufacturing industry. They used to make stuff. They decided that they didn’t need to make stuff after ww2 they could just buy what they needed and became a service economy based on tourism, food export etc. Look at where that has gotten them.


But you are correct the service industries (finance, retail, professional services etc) make up a massive amount of our GDP, but they also did in Nauru and in Cyprus.

Our economy is worth about $1.3T yet we get upset about spending ~ $150M/yr to bring in investment of around $500M/yr into Australia.

^ This man speaks sense

Funny .... I've been saying for are long time we don't wont to end up like the US selling Cafe Lattes to each other with no one making anything ( how long can this go on )

This morning on 3AW ..... Most job losses in Sheetmetal workers, MOST INCREASE in BARISTERS (Cafe Latte servers)
Why are we so naive and following the US's lead - surely we should know better and learn from their mistakes.

Eg. Boomberg had an article where Wallmart has now totally screwed up with BARE Shelves - people going in unable to purchase what they want and wait long ques at the check out that there icecream melts (if they don't have a relative back fetch it before the cash register)
Reason is they have cut back on staff to the point the stock is not getting restocked on the shelves and customers are going elsewhere.
Yes Walmart is $hit but it's amazing how the US is slipping to the point it got shopping experiances like Russia under high communism - LOL!

There best American car plants are in Mexico - highest quality 85/100 defects while the average in N/A ~ 140 /100.
Soon the way they are going they won't be able to afford the Chinese Walmart stock and there should be a lesson for us......
Don't destroy the mnaufacturing jobs as nothing we be left after the Chinese housing buble bursts and demand for Iron ore etc. goes down.
Mining at the moment is the only keeping a whole load of local people here afloat - but its like standing on 1 leg......

Most have already said it regarding how $150m per year as small change in the scheme of things, especially in relation to what the government gets back for their "investment" in terms of company tax, employee tax, etc. Australian aid abroad is currently around $500m per year and will rise to $900m per year by 2015. No one will likely complain about the help poorer countries need, so why complain about the money spent on keeping jobs in Australia.

Just an interesting perspective on where the tax income comes from and where it's spent is in the chart in the link. Have a look at company and resources tax ($82.442b) vs income tax ($163.050b). Add to that the GST income ($51.716b) and we see how much is collected from Joe average in comparison to business and resources.

BTW have a look at what's spent on social security and welfare. $150m is chicken feed.


http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/con...verview_42.htm

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Originally Posted by Jac001

I find it funny you equate the low of the standard of living with protecting the manufacturing industry when the exact opposite has been shown time and time against throught history. The industrial revolution is what made Western europe strong, it was the manufacturing industry that made the US a world power in the mid 1940 onwards. Would china economy and standard of living be rising if it wasn't investing in manufacturing?


Lets look at some facts:

in 2011
Manufacturing made up 12 % of GDP
Tourism is 2.5%
Agriculture makes up 3%

The idea that Australian manufacturing (everything not just Automotive) isn't that big is a falacy.

When large manufactuers fall smaller manufactuers fall with them, there is a terrible domino effect that occurs.


Lets look at exports then:

in 2009 car exports made up 0.83% of total export earnings.
Do know what the export earning were for fresh food (just fresh fruit and veg) that year? 0.35 %

How much of export earnings are made up from Mining/ resources? just over 60%! ($185B of $263B total) What do you think will happen when the the ore/ gas and oil are all sent overseas and there is nothing left in the ground? it might not happen today or next week, but at some point we know it will.

Investment into the country:

The CSIRO gets about $500m from non government sources each year and the government addes spend $700m to their budget on top of that.

For Holden to get most of the $2.2B they had to invest 3 x that amount (~$.6.5B) or around $500m/yr (on average) (under howard and Rudd before the rules where changed under gillard which is where most of the money was obtained).

Both of them bring about the same amount of money into the country each year, but in Holdens case the tax payer spends $150M/ yr to bring it in, where as the CSIRO the tax payer has to spend $700m/ yr to get the same money coming into Australia.

I find it funny you mention Greece. Before ww2, It used to have a moderately strong (non-automotive) manufacturing industry. They used to make stuff. They decided that they didn’t need to make stuff after ww2 they could just buy what they needed and became a service economy based on tourism, food export etc. Look at where that has gotten them.


But you are correct the service industries (finance, retail, professional services etc) make up a massive amount of our GDP, but they also did in Nauru and in Cyprus.

Our economy is worth about $1.3T yet we get upset about spending ~ $150M/yr to bring in investment of around $500M/yr into Australia.

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most people only see the raw initial facts and cry shafted. To only then be schooled in why and how a country actually has to support ITSELF. Australia is the lowest supporter of car manufacturers in the world...yet we have some of the best cars being designed and built here. If only the world could taste them for what they really are. Put it this way. If you want GM to spend billions here...then we have to give them millions.....:)

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Originally Posted by SUZUKI MALISHA

...yet we have some of the best cars being designed and built here. If only the world could taste them for what they really are. .....:)

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Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

VW have had serious reliability issues in the last 10 years. So much for the "quality" that that Euro badge is meant to imply.
VW might be booming in this country due to their (high aus dollar related) sales spurt and perceived "premium" Euro badge, but I alone know of a few people that previously bought a VW...and wont be going back. They just keep failing, and it tends to be expensive when they do.
Australia is more than capable of making world class cars, and they do. Hence why one of them is about to be exported to the US again. The other from the blue brand should have been exported YEARS ago, but head office politics prevented it.
Me thinks the good old aussie bogan might be trying to escape their roots by dissin' the locals. A bogan will always remain a bogan, even if doing the Flavor Flav thing with a Euro badge hangin' off the bling is trying to prove differently...;)

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Originally Posted by powerd

Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

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Thanks, for a well thought out & well written post.
You make a lot of sense. For sure, I do NOT want to agree with much that you've said, but I find that I have to, because it really is the way things are.
Thanks, Pickles.

This is partially relevant, but I found this speech at an industry meeting last year to be quite interesting.

It's a long read, but it certainly gives some additional perspective

http://www.fapm.com.au/Portals/0/eNe...%20-%20MDW.pdf

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Originally Posted by powerd

Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

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This man is correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerd

Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

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hate to bring this up with facts but you are not entirely correct. Just because they don't sell well, or you think they wont doesn't mean they shouldn't, or are bad cars. Look at the Australian designed Ranger. Its won many world awards and is miles ahead of the much more popular hilux. The ford territory is an amazing allrounder, built and benchmarked from the far more expensive bmw x5 series and is well known for its superior driveability comfort and noise levels among other things. Not to mention price...but that's the same with any of our aussie cars. What about the sedans for value.....topgear have on many occasions pointed out that the Turbo falcons are the best performance sedans in the world under 100K. Not to mention the only reason the maloos(fastest ute in world) didn't sell well in Britain was a no brainer..big car in a little country. Anyway....
So yes next time save your breath..... my point was NOT whether they sell well or not...it was that the car industry in Australia has proven over time that it can do good things and is an asset to Australia and we should support it. If you look at the stats...holden actually got far less per car then ford did so maybe questions should be asked about that????