Official HFV6 figures?
 

I just head about this but i am not 100% sure if its accurate.

170 kw for base models
190 kw for upper specs.

Not too bad at all

Either way I am gonna stick with the V8's. :D

Could be right....

The new modular V6 Holden have to play with provides them with some terrific opportunities. Providing a smaller capcity, slightly less powerful (not that 20kw is a small gap) for the fleet market, where cost and fuel consumption (running costs) are the primary drivers, while allowing private buyers to take a larger capcity more powerful engine.

Do't know whether it will happen, but IMO it does give Holden significant room to move and a great advantage in the marketplace.

Holden is probably also thinking about future upgrades. For example, I wouldn't be surprised to see the dropping of the 170kW version for VZ II or VE. With the weight advantage, 170 should be good for Falcon equalling performance, assuming theres a good torque spread.

Definitely, but I suspect that VZ will be a heavier vehicle that VY with the addition of a more advanced IRS setup, a heavier gearbox (5 Speed?) and most likely more content. Given the current alloy pushrod V6 I also expect that the engine will add a few kgs. Just looking at that lot I can see at least 100kgs of additional weight. (weight for the space saver spare tyre!!)

If Ford actually deliver a weight saving with BAII Commodore and Falcon may end up meeting somewhere in the middle when it comes to weight. Even so I would expect the higher reving Holden V6's to match the performance of Ford's torquier engines. Without providing the flexibility for different model variants and future upgrades.

Gonna be real interesting.....

Doesn't the current Ecotec have iron heads and block? The new alloy HF motor in bigger though, and new equipment upgrades will make it interesting I agree. But I think we should see a slightly lighter VZ....

Perhaps someone can help out here? But I thougt the Ecotec was alloy??
As for weight, adding DOHC = +kgs, Modern IRS = +kgs (Fords IRS is about 50-60kgs heavier than Holdens), 5 speed auto = +kgs. I can't help but think that VZ will be heavier, expecialy when chassis and structure remain largely unchanged. VE however, I expect some weight loss (back to VY levels anyway).

That being said, it all points to a similar situation that currently exists with the V8's, where much of Holden's performance advantage lies in the extra rev range and the ease with which the GenIII gets there. Surely the new V6's will have at least 500-600 rpm's more than Ford's I6??

What alloy pushrod V6?...........

http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpower.../gmpow/l47.htm
note: GM-H uses a rwd version of the L36 and L67.
note: Look at LA3 and compare to new HFV6.

--- Sid447 ---

I stand corrected.....thanks for that!!
:)

First we have heard of a new IRS.....
New IRS is not coming out till the new platform (Zeta) that comes with the VE .

VZ, will be lighter and more powerful than VYII

We have 2 VX V6 wagons, a VY V6 wagon, an I6 Falcon Ute and an I6 Fairmont at work and the VX wagons blow all the others out of the water both off the line and through the range. 170kw will be more than enough, as long as the throttle response is better than VY. It's really doughy off the line and won't even turn the tyres when stalled up (not that we've ever tried).

Mick

Oh NOOOooo! :stick:

Ooops, actually with this comment I actually meant Falcon beating performance.

With all due respect nowhere have I read of any V6 Commodore out performing an I6 BA Falcon in any print media so I assume you have lined them all up, while in some models a Falcon ute can actually weigh more then a BA Fairmont...I should add whenever I've been annoyed by a Commodore driving sales rep thinking the inside lane is for overtaking, they beat me to about 50 km/hr and then I reel them (in my BA wagon that is)

*bites tongue*

*cough*

:lol: ... :rofl:

Why hold back, we're not talking politics, religion or tax here just the old fashioned F Vs H rivalry?...should add the BA wagon is the lightest of the whole range...

Is that right??? Well I'll be....You learn something every day. :eyes:

So you're telling me that the _only_ Ford which could possibly come close to beating a Holden is being replaced by Territory???

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Pisser.

Serious question: Is the wagon lighter because it doesn't have IRS? I'd have thought that with all the extra glass and metal that the thing would be heavier.

Me too????

We are only talking a small amount however a BA wagon I6 A4 weighs in at about 1640kg and by the time you add a tray to a cab/chassis BA ute (lightest model is XL @ 1550kg) and air/con it is over this especially if using a steel checkerplate tray. Look closely at a BA utes chassis rail and its a larger box section/gauge then most opposition in particular the Holden one tonner.
O/T: Also, using some inlet parts from the XR6T on the stock I6 rather cheaply lifts it to approx. 200kW. Now if only I could add complete VVT to all phases like the FPV Typhoon and I'd be real happy.

I’ve only driven a BA Wagon once. It was with the car salesman next to me. I thought the car was worth a test drive before making my final decision on the VY. It's not every day you buy a new car, it was a moment to savour.

Anyway, I hammered the thing off the on ramp down the freeway, the BA seemed to have more once wound out. At lower speed up to say 50 km they felt similar. With 180KW it has to be a bit quicker. A BA manual 6cyl is nearly as fast as the 5.4 220KW up to 100 Km. The BA 6 would have to be a world class donk.

Funny considering its the same bottom end from about the EF range , maybe further back than that even . Surprising what a decent head can do :)

Actually, the block goes back to EA.

Can you show me proof of the weight advantage or is this just what you have heard. Not having a go but is there some official information that you have seen and if so can you direct me towards it.

There is plenty of speculation here about the new holden being heavier, lighter etc...

I can tell you with a pretty high degree of confidence that the new commodore will be significanlty heavier than the VY.

Weight is added not just by new engines, gearboxes, suspensions, etc, its also the redesigning of many of the safety structures of the body shell and chassis that adds the weight. This is why Barra and Territory are significantly heavier than the Holden equivalent.

Expect the new Holden Executive to be heavier than the 1st series BA XT.

Isn't the VZ more of a mechanical/cosmetic update?

I'd have thought that the structure would stay as it is considering that the VZ is the last in this series. Especially since it is only going to be run for a tad over 18 months. Bigger changes like that would be reserved for VE, no?

Due to the limited information available, I wouldn't take the input of anyone (except an engineer from Holden) as gospel. Everything is just speculation at this point.

However, if the VZ is heavier than the BA, it will be the first ever full-sized Holden sedan in its 56 year history to weigh more than an equivalent Ford and that's not something either camp should be proud of.....

Well, VY is a lot lighter than BA, so I am assuming VZ will be lighter than BA still. Its hard to pick if the VZ will be heavier than VY or not, its getting a lot of new stuff to add weight, but then it gets a much lighter motor... wait and see I guess.

Pointless speculating on weights and dimentions and what not. Lets wait and see when the next model commode is officially released.

Clixanup

I should've been more specific, the VZ is not a new commodore, as you stated, the VE (whatever the name may be) will be the significant upgrade... this is where we'll see the major changes, 2006??

This is from an ex Holden engineer that did exactly this, redesign of body shell structures etc, worked a little while at Innovation too, but luckily for him he says that Ford poached him as he sees that place going down hill.

When we're talking about cars that are the bread and butter of the Aussie market and they're aimed at the average family, they are made to a price... this means that they will gain weight as safety is improved etc they just don't have the money to do both.... until some of the world class materials become more affordable, then there will be some sort of compromise when it somes to weight and even quality.

But slowly we will be seeing new weight saving technologies coming into our Aussie cars, i know of one particular Aussie manufacturer that is looking very closely at a weight saving strategy that is only used by 1 other manufacturer and they are German.

anyone notice how whenever a thread with new holden technology is in the topic the ford boys and girls jump in and straight away get defensive ???

does get a little annoying... can't we talk about the new holden without saying, BA this BA that, who cares....

Totally agreed.

what's so annoying about stating the facts Drizt??? especially when it relates to your commodore?

If your lucky, Holden may have come up with something to get the weight down from what it was projected to be, it's been a while since my mate has worked with them (about a year i think).

What facts? This is all hearsay.

well it's as good as the facts could be at this time. Obvisouly it may change.

And just to add, i was merely adding to the converstion about the technology about the future commodore as i happen to know about it to some degree.

Dont know what this Ford boys jumping up and down is about... i don't feel i'm doing that at all.

Like SSbaby said - its all hearsay.

You know as much as the rest of us - which is just rumours and BS from mates of mates.

Clixanup

you may think so, but i know that my mates don't feed me BS, i feel for you if you have mates like that.

I wont continue on a personal level as i don't want to be thought of as the person who caused closure of the thread.

Who's getting personal? Just stating the one fact which is true here - Nobody outside Holden really knows anything about either VZ or VE yet. The fact that you've spoken to a mate who used to work at Holden doesn't make you any more an authority on the VE than anyone else here.

There is still a at least 2 years to the launch of VE - don't you think Holden are going to spend that time refining their product? To think that their final product will be the same as a 3 year old prototype is laughable....

Clixnaup

I didn't say i had any more authority than anybody here, i just thought i'd contribute to the thread as i thought what i had to add had value.

I didn't unsult or attack anybody, didn't say you had to believe me, just thought you guys might appreciate some more info, whether you may find that info negative or positive...

You may feel i have no value to add? Search back way before VY was released and see if i had anything but facts to add about it's styling... i think i was one of the first to tell you guys about it in the public forums?

Agreed!!!

But there a few things we either do know, or CAN be confident of

- The HFV6 is a lighter and arguably more high tech engine than Ford's I6
- The HFV6 will have a higher redline than the I6
- The BA weighs a lot more than a VY
- A significant proportion of the weight difference lies in the BA's engines and IRS, which are not changing anytime soon
- The VZ being a facelift (rather than a new model) is unlikely to see a significant movement in weight from VYII
- The BAII being a facelift is unlikely to see any meaningful reduction in weight as the cars structure (chassis etc) would not be changed after 2yrs
- The HFV6 will be more powerful than existing V6's
- The VE is 18mths off and pretty much everything is speculation

Speculation & Heresay which unless I'm mistaken was exactly where this thread started in the first place.

And what do these things we can be confident of mean (this is the speculative part)
- The VZ with its more powerful engine and higher redline will probably outperform a BAII in a straight line
- The VZ is likely to continue to enjoy its weight advantage

For real speculation however we need to start talking about VE and what Ford's response would be ("Orion" / "Copperhead")

There are many things about the VE that are set in concrete already.

Ahhh, but that is different.

Firstly, your mate was still working at Holden.

Secondly, there wasn't much about the VY that wasn't known before its launch. Holden seem to be tightening up their pre-release info leaks, so much of what has been said to date is speculation.