Continuous Fuel Pump Failures in HSV E3 GTS 2011

[crackelaktor]

Hi Folks, I have also posted a similar thread on the HSV forums and am following up the recommendations provided there, but wanted to try and see if anyone on here can help me.

I picked up my new E3 GTS on 4th July 2011. I still have it and love it but am on my 7th fuel pump, soon to be 8th as my 7th fuel pump failed yesterday and car was towed to mechanic. I have been taking the car to my local UltraTune in Castle Hill for servicing and fuel pump replacements. Its a long story but UltraTune Castle Hill have been very supportive and honest during the saga. I've also had Dale perform a MAFLESS Tune on the car shortly after I first bought it and will need to followup with Dave & Dale at Castle Hill Performance to see if there is a potential connection there. So here is the history and timeline. I know there are others out there will fuel pump failures, but surely not as frequent as mine.

• 04/07/2011 - Picked up brand new GTS E3 from Suttons Holden Roseberry (with original factory fuel pump)
• 13/07/2011 – Holden fitted (via John Jag Electrical) QuickTrak GPS tracking system for engine immobilisation
• 13/10/2011 – Car taken to Castle Hill Performance for Mafless Dyno tune. 1st time car was tuned at Castle Hill Performance. The car went from 227.6rwkw to 268.8rwkw (up 41rwkw). The car at the time only had a few 1000 kms on it (around 5,000 I think but cannot remember now). MAF was left in place but disabled.
• 16/01/2013 – QuickTrak came out (Yanddy) to home in Castle Hill to replace problem QuickTrak device in boot.
• 18/03/2013 (20,293kms) – First problem with fuel pump occurs. Holden replaced original fuel pump under warranty as car was difficult to start (but was still working), would crank for a while and then eventually start (2nd fuel pump).
• 09/07/2013 – Castle Hill performance perform a touch up tune. Car had 24,000kms on the clock. On first run, the car made 245rwkw (down 23.3rwkw from the 268.8rwkw from Oct 2011) and was running very lean. Dale did several tweaks to the tune, and the result was a healthy 277.5rwkw (up 32rwkw on the day, and up 8.7rwkw from Oct 2011 tune). I couldn't believe how much extra power I had lost from the Oct 2011 tune, just by changing the inlet from the MAF to the VCM rubber boot. Dale suggested that when these cars run lean, they lose power, so he got the air/fuel mixture spot on, and I was back up to where it should have been.
• 10/10/2016 (56,723kms) - Car would hesitate randomly under acceleration and was difficult to start. Took to UltraTune and they installed a new fuel pump (3rd fuel pump)
• 07/06/2017 (72,326kms) - 8 months later, car wouldn't start. No fuel pressure. Towed to UltraTune and they replaced the fuel pump at no cost under warranty and claimed it had failed. They sent back to original manufacturer as a warranty claim. (4th fuel pump)
• 21/10/2017 (81,000kms) - Loss of power and acceleration and eventually would no longer start. Car towed to UltraTune and Fuel pump replaced at reduced cost. Found metal flakes in tank and fuel sock was dirty, but not sure how dirty it could have got in 4 months (5th fuel pump installed but not factory one). Tank was removed and cleaned out.
• 22/10/2017 - the day after, I noticed the car is not starting cleanly as it use to. It will crank over the first time and not start. It will then start on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time straight away.
• ??/11/2017 – Sometime in November 2017, UltraTune replaced the 5th fuel pump (which was installed on 21/10/2017) a with a 6th new factory fuel pump to resolve the starting issues. Fuel pump wasn’t broken, but car was taking a long time to start.
• 12/04/2018 – (92,400kms) fuel pump issues. Dropped car into UltraTune 6 months after last replacement (approx. 10,000kms). James finds an issue with QuickTrak installation in boot which is in line with Fuel Power. Fuel pump was not replaced. Failed 8 days later.
• 20/04/2018 – (92,465kms) fuel pump replaced along with new direct power feed from fuel pump to battery, bypassing factory power to fuel. QuickTrak device removed. This was the 7th fuel pump in the car. Pump replaced under warranty but paid for labour and power bypass.
• 04/08/2018 – Car got towed from North Rocks to UltraTune after 7th fuel pump failure. James tested power to pump and relay, all confirmed good. Fuel pump died after 5,500kms. About to get 8th fuel pump in car.

Members from the HSV forum have provided some good suggestions which I have followed up, but more recently have suggested to take it back to the Tuner for a look at whether the VE MAFLESS tune could have something to do with this. Not sure what link the tune could have with constant fuel pump failures but interested in any ones educated views on this.

The car has a VCM OTR with VCM rubber mafless boot and a custom tune from Dale & Dave at Castle Hill Performance. What potential interference could a MAFLESS tune have with a fuel pump as whilst you can tune more or less fuel into tune, I didn't think this would do anything to the pump, but rather tell the ECU to work the injectors harder or not. Is fuel pressure something a tune could potentially impact in a way that would break the fuel pump?

Any responses would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Paul

[Red CV8 R]

Very sorry to hear of your problems, I cant offer any advice directly but I have heard of QuickTrack installs causing issues back in the day, I didn't even know they were still running, I thought they went under? Can you actually still buy a unit and get it monitored by them? However you've removed QuickTeack now and assuming no issues remain from that install, I would consider trying someone other than UltraTune to look at your issue. Not saying they have done a bad job but 8 fuel pumps later and it may be worth a fresh set of eyes. I hope you get a resolution as it must be very frustrating.

[Micks]

Shuddered when I read Suttons City, really feel for ya

[Xjas]

It suck to have repeat failures like that, makes you loose faith in the car.

Firstly I doubt the tune could cause it, there are 1000s of tuned VE commodores around many making much more power than yours without fuel pump issues.

Do you know what actually failed in the pump?
There are several failure modes for an assembly like that and you'd need disassemble and inspect the pump to find out what failed in order to determine why, after 7 failed pumps its fair to say there is some other root cause, very unlikely to get 7 faulty pumps in a row. Even if one in every 100 pumps made were faulty your chance of getting 7 in a row is like 1 in 100 trillion.

Pump failure modes I can think of without pulling one apart myself;
Electrical circuit failure, high or low resistance.
Pump mechanical failure, seized bearing, seized vanes(if its a vane pump) excessive clearances either from debris or excessive load.
Blockages, screens, inlets, outlets.
Debris damage, water damage.
Suction leaks, unlikely considering pump is submerged but you haven't mention fuel tank levels at time of failure.

What failure mode you find determines where you look next but a couple of things I can think of worth checking are fuel lines for blockages and fuel tank vent system for problems.


BTW, how was the pump being faulty determined, I presume someone did a fuel pressure test or resistance check or something? It wasn't just "we think its the fuel pump lets replace it and see what happens" was it?

[crackelaktor]

It suck to have repeat failures like that, makes you loose faith in the car.

Firstly I doubt the tune could cause it, there are 1000s of tuned VE commodores around many making much more power than yours without fuel pump issues.

Do you know what actually failed in the pump?
There are several failure modes for an assembly like that and you'd need disassemble and inspect the pump to find out what failed in order to determine why, after 7 failed pumps its fair to say there is some other root cause, very unlikely to get 7 faulty pumps in a row. Even if one in every 100 pumps made were faulty your chance of getting 7 in a row is like 1 in 100 trillion.

Pump failure modes I can think of without pulling one apart myself;
Electrical circuit failure, high or low resistance.
Pump mechanical failure, seized bearing, seized vanes(if its a vane pump) excessive clearances either from debris or excessive load.
Blockages, screens, inlets, outlets.
Debris damage, water damage.
Suction leaks, unlikely considering pump is submerged but you haven't mention fuel tank levels at time of failure.

What failure mode you find determines where you look next but a couple of things I can think of worth checking are fuel lines for blockages and fuel tank vent system for problems.


BTW, how was the pump being faulty determined, I presume someone did a fuel pressure test or resistance check or something? It wasn't just "we think its the fuel pump lets replace it and see what happens" was it?

Hi Xjas, after the car completely dies and wont start. I get it towed and my mechanic does a fuel pressure test and confirms the pump is totally dead. He then removes it and tests it with external power and confirms its done.

Ive had a new separate power circuit installed to bypass factory circuit which Quicktrak originally was plummed into and still have had a failure since.

I will ask the guys to check the fuel lines as weve exhausted all other obvious areas. Will probably also ask the team at Castle Hill Performance to check the tune and see whether there is any possibility of it being related, although not sure how it could be.

Is the FPCM a separate external module to the fuel pump or is it built in to it? I am using the factory Holden fuel pump for my car.

[Wonky]

E3 would mean E85 compatible? I've had 3 series 1 VEs (not E85) which have done a total of well over 150,000km and never had a fuel pump problem (or any other major problem). All were tuned very soon after purchase, 1st bolt on, 2nd cam and shaved heads, 3rd blown. The 3rd had a (Harrop) ZL1 fuel pump fitted a while back as it was running out of fuel at the top end but apart from that no problem.

As Xjas suggested, to have that many failures something external to the pump itself must be causing them problems.

[crackelaktor]

E3 would mean E85 compatible? I've had 3 series 1 VEs (not E85) which have done a total of well over 150,000km and never had a fuel pump problem (or any other major problem). All were tuned very soon after purchase, 1st bolt on, 2nd cam and shaved heads, 3rd blown. The 3rd had a (Harrop) ZL1 fuel pump fitted a while back as it was running out of fuel at the top end but apart from that no problem.

As Xjas suggested, to have that many failures something external to the pump itself must be causing them problems.

Thanks Wonky. Totally agree. Car is being looked at again and they are looking at the fuel line itself to ensure no kinks or issues exist but other than that, not sure what else external this could be.

I spoke with Dave at Castle Hill Performance about whether the tune could cause such an issue and he said the pump itself had no relation to the tune in the E series cars. The fuel pump is a very basic setup in these cars.

I then spoke with HSV and sent them the full history of failures and they are escalating this to Holden for assistance. HSV told me they have a customer in Melbourne with the exact same issue and they are up to number 7 fuel pump as well. Holden are all over it apparently.

CHP also told me they have one customer with a fakling fuel pump approx every 9 months and they can't get to the bottom of it.

Im hoping UltraTune find something more definitive this time around but now that this has been wired directly to the battery, not sure what else could be causing the issues. Fingers crossed i guess.

Paul

[whitels1ss]

Paul, I have heard plenty of stories about ethanol fuel relating to corrosion & damage in fuel systems.

Plenty of stories on the net can be found with a quick search.

Here is just one to start with using even E10.

https://www.equipmentworld.com/e-10-...our-fuel-pump/

I personally won't go near the stuff.

[crackelaktor]

Paul, I have heard plenty of stories about ethanol fuel relating to corrosion & damage in fuel systems.

Plenty of stories on the net can be found with a quick search.

Here is just one to start with using even E10.

https://www.equipmentworld.com/e-10-...our-fuel-pump/

Thanks for sharing. I personally won't go near the stuff.

I never use E10, only 98 Ron Shell or Caltex. Couldnt imagine putting E10 in such a car.

[whitels1ss]

I never use E10, only 98 Ron Shell or Caltex. Couldnt imagine putting E10 in such a car.

Good stuff Paul

but I was wondering if you may have ever used E85 because I can imagine it's water absorption causing similar problems?

[crackelaktor]

Good stuff Paul

but I was wondering if you may have ever used E85 because I can imagine it's water absorption causing similar problems?

Hi. Never. Car was tuned for 98 and thats all that i put into it

[whitels1ss]

Good stuff.

[whitels1ss]

Would it be worth perhaps looking at an aftermarket fuel pump?

[crackelaktor]

Perhaps but will see what Holden do as ive gone via HSV and provided them the history, which they have escalated on my behalf.

If Holden/HSV wash their hands of it, i will probably go aftermarket the next time it fails.

Would it be worth perhaps looking at an aftermarket fuel pump?

[whitels1ss]

Perhaps but will see what Holden do as ive gone via HSV and provided them the history, which they have escalated on my behalf.

If Holden/HSV wash their hands of it, i will probably go aftermarket the next time it fails.

Best of luck with it Paul.