Falcon & Territory to disappear forever after 2016

[Xjas]

I suppose the 200 extra hp and 220 less kg in weight had nothing to do with it, even though the GTR beat them all out of the blocks

It certainly helps, I would guess one of the reason its 220kgs lighter is because its not AWD, you could also say they had room in the front for a larger more powerful engine since they didnt have a front diff occupying limited engine bay real estate. Makes it a pretty fair comparison really.

[Xjas]

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD

Just wondering how much power I need before its considered real power?

[Jamolad]

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD
Thats why the arguments here are from most of those with stockish cars, they have full traction in the dry cause they cant turn the tyres through lack of grunt rolling on in 2nd or 3rd gear

Ignorance comes through having driven slow cars all your life and thinking they are fast on the internet.....its a dumb argument

Yeah but it all comes down to how and when you use your slowness and lack of power - I have flogged so many high HP cars on the street when they have not known we were racing (have even flogged AWDs that did not race me)

[FOON]

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[seldo]

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD
Thats why the arguments here are from most of those with stockish cars, they have full traction in the dry cause they cant turn the tyres through lack of grunt rolling on in 2nd or 3rd gear

Ignorance comes through having driven slow cars all your life and thinking they are fast on the internet.....its a dumb argument

Over the years I've read many a tale of woe on here from guys who have been a bit injudicious with the welly in a variety of even stockish cars that have elected to spend bling dollars before practical dollars, and end up picking the pieces out of the scenery due to a litle bit of unforseen water on the road. Most common one I read is about guys who've spent a squillion making it go rooley fast on a dyno, and then want advice on which are the best $100 tyres to put on it.... A week later there's a tale of woe about how it leapt off the road of its own accord....
To a large extent, AWD adds a huge security blanket to these guys.

[Martin_D]

It certainly helps, I would guess one of the reason its 220kgs lighter is because its not AWD, you could also say they had room in the front for a larger more powerful engine since they didnt have a front diff occupying limited engine bay real estate. Makes it a pretty fair comparison really.

Because its half the physical size, has half the room in it, and is made from twigs and tape - which is why all the trim/seats/fittings in a Corvette are shot in a couple of years, and ready for the crusher in under a decade. This has always been the way with Vettes, very cheap and nasty devices made of low quality materials.

[Martin_D]

Just wondering how much power I need before its considered real power?

When you can roll it on in second or third gear and boil the tyres to the rev limiter you have decent power
When you can do the above in fourth you are on the money - real power

[Xjas]

Because its half the physical size, has half the room in it, and is made from twigs and tape - which is why all the trim/seats/fittings in a Corvette are shot in a couple of years, and ready for the crusher in under a decade. This has always been the way with Vettes, very cheap and nasty devices made of low quality materials.

And yet despite all these shortcomings and the apparent RWD disadvantage the ZR1 is significantly faster than a GTR.

[sjhugh]

Both RWD & AWD make good platforms for performance cars with pros and cons, it’s a bit of name your poison and spend your money and there still will always be someone faster.
But to say the Vette is significantly faster than the GT-R is over the top.

Using the Norschleife as the fashionable benchmark for production cars, the ZR1 with 97Hp more and 206kg lighter did it in 7:19.63 at an average speed of 169km/h and the GT-R came in at 7:21.00 at 168km/h.

A difference of 1.37 seconds around a track that is 20.6km long. (1.37seconds over 20.6km)

Interestingly the new LZ1 Camaro (7:41.27) was about 22 seconds slower than the Vette and the Dodge Viper (7:12.13), 7 seconds faster.
I’d take any of these cars anyday, it’s a pity only the GT-R is available in RHD from the factory. I guess us Aussies just have to dream on and live with our 4 door LS powered taxis.

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[zorro]

This is an unwind able argument, the gtr vs zr1 are two different machines. Corvette built to be lightweight an fast with a big hp v8, the gtr to beat Porsche 911 turbos

The reality is no two cars from different manufacturers are not identical so each in their own right have pros and cons to the other. They are both, to quote Lance Tran, "an amazing machine". If you believe that manufacturers lap Nordschleif with 'off the sales room floor' models then you are very much mistaken, the whole point is to hang shit aswell as show the cars potential so there will always be some secrets in them.

As I said earlier awd can make an average driver a not so average driver, if you bin an evo you probably shouldn't be driving then. Rwd is great fun and challenging, fwd is getting better with the quick ones like Renault, ford etc really making them work.

[plonkerchops]

It certainly helps, I would guess one of the reason its 220kgs lighter is because its not AWD, you could also say they had room in the front for a larger more powerful engine since they didnt have a front diff occupying limited engine bay real estate. Makes it a pretty fair comparison really.

ok , so a huge power to weigh difference is a fair comparison, then you'll think its fair that we compare the vette to the (AWD) Veyron which is 3oo odd kilos heavier but has more horsepower?
I reckon that would be pretty fair

[Xjas]

I was actually refering to video I'd posted of the GTR, Ferrari, Porsche and ZR1 but you are right it is also faster around the ring as well. I am neither for or against either car, just using it to illustrate the point that AWD doesn't automatically equal a faster car.

[planetdavo]

If Martin wasn't contributing to this thread it would probably still be about Falcon and Territory post 2016...

Personally, I'd MUCH rather see 10 highly skilled race drivers mastering the (apparently ENORMOUSLY difficult) task of regulating engine output to just the one pair of wheels and tyres, rather than see 10 average race drivers looking like legends whilst some nameless computer geek from Japan's finest work is crunching numbers apportioning drive between the four wheels to maintain near perfect grip (til the same tyres let go, that is)
On road cars, as I said earlier, let the electronics nannies save people. Far cheaper than AWD, uses less fuel, and just as effective really (but maybe not as fast, for all those street bandits )

[plonkerchops]

yes , more hp and less weight does...generally