Help Please: Intermittent engine start then immediate stall issue

[amcleod1]

Hi all.

I'm Hoping someone can help me with an intermittent engine start then immediate stall issue. I have searched this site and found some useful posts/info which i have followed and replaced a number of parts as suggested by the posts but problem remains.

Car is a 2000 Holden Calias Auto with LS1 engine. Engine/transmission has 190,000km on it. Regularly serviced. No oil leaks. Runs 98 octane fuel.

Problem / Symptoms:

The engine will start normally on most 1st attempts without issues - just by turning the key.
Sometimes the engine will start normally on 1st attempt but with very low rpm that builds to normal idle rpm within a few seconds.

Randomly however, say one out of every 10 first start attempts, the engine will crank and kick-over normally, but then immediately stalls
Most times it will start and run on next start attempt
Sometimes it may take several re-start attempts
When it starts:
- sometimes it starts with very low rpm that builds to normal idle rpm within a few seconds
- sometimes I've had to floor the accelerator pedal on the re-starts to get the engine to run
- sometimes turning the key from ON to START does nothing on re-start, no fuel pump priming, or start soleniod clicking in (have to turn key all the way back to off before engine will crank again)


Once started and running engine appears to run normally. Only abnormal running things I've noticed are:
-Idle is a little rough - vibrations felt throughout the car (occurred before and after new engine mounts recently installed.)
-Under heavy acceleration power is not applied smoothly - engine hesitates then power surges. This hesitation/surge occurs from standing start, and at speed following auto-transmission-kick down.
-Generally I'd say power overall for a 5.7L V8 seems low to me, but it does have 190,000 on it.

So problem is best described as an intermittent engine start then immediate stall issue. Problem occurs randomly - I haven't established any sequence of events to force the problem to occur. It happens with engine hot or cold. You can hear fuel pump prime for 2 secs or so when key turned to ON. I had Holden connect a Tech-2 and it pulled no codes whatsoever.


I've replaced the following parts, one at a time in order, and driven the car:
1. Replaced Battery - problem still exists
2. Replace Start and EFI Relays - problem still exists
3. Removed and cleaned IAC Valve and connectors - problem stills exists
4. Removed and replaced Crankshaft Angle Sensor - problem stills exists
5. Cleaned MAF Sensor - problem stills exists
6. Plugs and leads replaced - problem stills exists
7. Fuel injector petrol additive - problem stills exists

I know one of my intermediate mufflers has a collapsed or loose baffle - expensive part to replace so not gone there yet.
Haven't replaced the IAC valve - again expensive the replace.


My current thoughts are that it could be:
A fuel delivery issue (fuel pressure, clogged/dirty fuel filter, lines and injectors); or
Some form of electrical issue or
the intermediate muffler or
the IAC valve

Appreciate any suggestions or next steps to diagnose fault cause.

Thanks in advance.

[daskip]

check your MAP sensor

[amcleod1]

Update: As luck would have it, I was able to capture the start/stall issue on video. I've posted up to youtube at http://youtu.be/95NgRFk6dPM

This was one of the worst examples to catch on tape. It shows 12 start attempts in trying to get the car started for first time for the day. Once started and running, a further 6 or so starts off video were perfectly normal.

Attempts 1 - 3: Nothing, car was dead, no starter motor activiation at all.
Attempt 4: Cranked, no kick over
Attempt 5: Cranked, kicked over and immediately stalled
Attempt 6 - 7 : Cranked, no kick over
Attempt 8 - 9 : Cranked, kicked over, ran for a moment and stalled
Attempt 10: Cranked, no kick over
Attempt 11: Cranked, kicked over, ran for a moment and stalled
Attempt 12 (inside the car) : Started and running

[amcleod1]

check your MAP sensor

Hi, What would I check the MAP sensor for ?

[vassis]

Cars starts without the map sensor even plugged in as when u scan a engine start the map shows as 100kpa

I watched your video and it seems something is telling it to not attempt to start like something in the PCM or an electrical fault

Id rule out IAC valve as i had a bad one it doesnt stop the engine from starting like that as i had one that wasnt homing was making the idle change spots but it wouldnt not crank like yours

Is it possible something like a faulty BCM or faulty resistor in the key making the pcm think its getting stolen perhaps?

Edit; i was changing key hole light on my mother inlaws VX SS and i forgot to put the contact ring around the key back on it started and stalled right away because the vehicle anti theft cut in

Did it twice too because i had to change the polarity of the led globe a second time but i think it didnt crank at all the second time..

Try a spare key if you have one because it very much sounds like what i had on her car..just a thought anyways

[super coach]

Funny how i have developed the same issue just yesterday with my 03 Monaro.

First start of the morning when you normally start it it goes into the old "choke" mode and holds the engine at 1,000 before everything is bought up to pressure.

but recently i start it and the revs are all over the place as if its going to stall but right at the last sec it gains life again but then goes to die again. it jumps from 1,000 rpm to 500rpm and i notice when it gets down to the 500 the oil warning light comes one but disappears when it goes to 1000 but then comes on again when it get to 500.

cant really put it out of drive cos then it just splutters.

when this happens if i turn off the engine and wait a minute then start, engine still cold it starts normally as it should and holds the rpm at 1000 before dropping back down to normal.

can someone throw me some help ideas as what could be causing me this issue? dirty throttle body?

[steve_t]

amcleod: At first I thought maybe Crank Angle Sensor but that'd be likely to throw a code. So, my first guess is going to be: Cracked spark plug

super coach: Do you still have a MAF?

[amcleod1]

amcleod: At first I thought maybe Crank Angle Sensor but that'd be likely to throw a code. So, my first guess is going to be: Cracked spark plug

Hi Steve_t - thanks for the suggestions. I have already replaced Crankshaft Angle Sensor and all plugs and leads less than 3,000 km ago. Made no difference. Fault remains.

[steve_t]

Hi Steve_t - thanks for the suggestions. I have already replaced Crankshaft Angle Sensor and all plugs and leads less than 3,000 km ago. Made no difference. Fault remains.

Oops. If I'd read your first post properly, I'd have known that. Sorry, my bad

[deverson1]

Hi
Sounds like it may be your key not turning the immobilizer off. if you have a spare try it.

Thanks Daniel

[amcleod1]

Thanks deverson1. After reading a few more posts today, and also vassis reply again I started to think the same. I know the problem occurs no matter what key I use. So I tried an experiment today - I left the car stopped and unlocked for a few hours. I put a couple of layers of electrical tape over the contact nipple on the key, inserted the key so the tape insulated the key from the ring and tried to start the car. Guess what, I was able to generate just about everyone of the symptoms I mentioned above. Then, with the tape still in place, I depressed the unlock button, it started first time and ran fine.

I'm guessing the theft system automatically locks the ignition down (immobilises) after some set period of time after the engine is stopped whether you use the key to lock it or not. Further I'm guessing the only way to disable the theft system to start the car after period of time is EITHER to use the key to UNLOCK the car OR via the circuit the key makes with the ring on the lock. If so, it could well be that the contact on my keys are worn, or the ring in the ignition lock is worn, or both.

So I'm going to give it a couple of weeks now to hit the unlock button every time immediately before starting the car to see if that resolves the problem. Will update this thread then.

[Angeldust]

Hi, i would check the immobiliser. I had similar problems on my Holdens before.

[firie]

G'day.

I have 2001 vx. It's a v6 but I had a similar issue. Mine seemed to do it on cold starts. I also noticed that my aftermarket exhaust had developed a leak. Once exhaust was replaced starts first time very time.

Good luck.

[super coach]

Steve_t

my car is stock standard, so what should i look at or for

[deverson1]

Thanks deverson1. After reading a few more posts today, and also vassis reply again I started to think the same. I know the problem occurs no matter what key I use. So I tried an experiment today - I left the car stopped and unlocked for a few hours. I put a couple of layers of electrical tape over the contact nipple on the key, inserted the key so the tape insulated the key from the ring and tried to start the car. Guess what, I was able to generate just about everyone of the symptoms I mentioned above. Then, with the tape still in place, I depressed the unlock button, it started first time and ran fine.

I'm guessing the theft system automatically locks the ignition down (immobilises) after some set period of time after the engine is stopped whether you use the key to lock it or not. Further I'm guessing the only way to disable the theft system to start the car after period of time is EITHER to use the key to UNLOCK the car OR via the circuit the key makes with the ring on the lock. If so, it could well be that the contact on my keys are worn, or the ring in the ignition lock is worn, or both.

So I'm going to give it a couple of weeks now to hit the unlock button every time immediately before starting the car to see if that resolves the problem. Will update this thread then.

Hi glad I could be of some help.
If you take your keys to a locksmith or mister minit they can test your keys to see if they are sending the code or not for free. This way you can focus on the car side of things or it could just be the keys.

Thanks Daniel