Holden Billions in subsidies from Australian Goverment revealed.

[Ausmartin1]

Funny .... I've been saying for are long time we don't wont to end up like the US selling Cafe Lattes to each other with no one making anything ( how long can this go on )

This morning on 3AW ..... Most job losses in Sheetmetal workers, MOST INCREASE in BARISTERS (Cafe Latte servers)
Why are we so naive and following the US's lead - surely we should know better and learn from their mistakes.

Eg. Boomberg had an article where Wallmart has now totally screwed up with BARE Shelves - people going in unable to purchase what they want and wait long ques at the check out that there icecream melts (if they don't have a relative back fetch it before the cash register)
Reason is they have cut back on staff to the point the stock is not getting restocked on the shelves and customers are going elsewhere.
Yes Walmart is $hit but it's amazing how the US is slipping to the point it got shopping experiances like Russia under high communism - LOL!

There best American car plants are in Mexico - highest quality 85/100 defects while the average in N/A ~ 140 /100.
Soon the way they are going they won't be able to afford the Chinese Walmart stock and there should be a lesson for us......
Don't destroy the mnaufacturing jobs as nothing we be left after the Chinese housing buble bursts and demand for Iron ore etc. goes down.
Mining at the moment is the only keeping a whole load of local people here afloat - but its like standing on 1 leg......

[mac06]

Most have already said it regarding how $150m per year as small change in the scheme of things, especially in relation to what the government gets back for their "investment" in terms of company tax, employee tax, etc. Australian aid abroad is currently around $500m per year and will rise to $900m per year by 2015. No one will likely complain about the help poorer countries need, so why complain about the money spent on keeping jobs in Australia.

Just an interesting perspective on where the tax income comes from and where it's spent is in the chart in the link. Have a look at company and resources tax ($82.442b) vs income tax ($163.050b). Add to that the GST income ($51.716b) and we see how much is collected from Joe average in comparison to business and resources.

BTW have a look at what's spent on social security and welfare. $150m is chicken feed.


http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/con...verview_42.htm

[SUZUKI MALISHA]

I find it funny you equate the low of the standard of living with protecting the manufacturing industry when the exact opposite has been shown time and time against throught history. The industrial revolution is what made Western europe strong, it was the manufacturing industry that made the US a world power in the mid 1940 onwards. Would china economy and standard of living be rising if it wasn't investing in manufacturing?


Lets look at some facts:

in 2011
Manufacturing made up 12 % of GDP
Tourism is 2.5%
Agriculture makes up 3%

The idea that Australian manufacturing (everything not just Automotive) isn't that big is a falacy.

When large manufactuers fall smaller manufactuers fall with them, there is a terrible domino effect that occurs.


Lets look at exports then:

in 2009 car exports made up 0.83% of total export earnings.
Do know what the export earning were for fresh food (just fresh fruit and veg) that year? 0.35 %

How much of export earnings are made up from Mining/ resources? just over 60%! ($185B of $263B total) What do you think will happen when the the ore/ gas and oil are all sent overseas and there is nothing left in the ground? it might not happen today or next week, but at some point we know it will.

Investment into the country:

The CSIRO gets about $500m from non government sources each year and the government addes spend $700m to their budget on top of that.

For Holden to get most of the $2.2B they had to invest 3 x that amount (~$.6.5B) or around $500m/yr (on average) (under howard and Rudd before the rules where changed under gillard which is where most of the money was obtained).

Both of them bring about the same amount of money into the country each year, but in Holdens case the tax payer spends $150M/ yr to bring it in, where as the CSIRO the tax payer has to spend $700m/ yr to get the same money coming into Australia.

I find it funny you mention Greece. Before ww2, It used to have a moderately strong (non-automotive) manufacturing industry. They used to make stuff. They decided that they didn’t need to make stuff after ww2 they could just buy what they needed and became a service economy based on tourism, food export etc. Look at where that has gotten them.


But you are correct the service industries (finance, retail, professional services etc) make up a massive amount of our GDP, but they also did in Nauru and in Cyprus.

Our economy is worth about $1.3T yet we get upset about spending ~ $150M/yr to bring in investment of around $500M/yr into Australia.

most people only see the raw initial facts and cry shafted. To only then be schooled in why and how a country actually has to support ITSELF. Australia is the lowest supporter of car manufacturers in the world...yet we have some of the best cars being designed and built here. If only the world could taste them for what they really are. Put it this way. If you want GM to spend billions here...then we have to give them millions.....

[powerd]

...yet we have some of the best cars being designed and built here. If only the world could taste them for what they really are. .....

Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

[planetdavo]

VW have had serious reliability issues in the last 10 years. So much for the "quality" that that Euro badge is meant to imply.
VW might be booming in this country due to their (high aus dollar related) sales spurt and perceived "premium" Euro badge, but I alone know of a few people that previously bought a VW...and wont be going back. They just keep failing, and it tends to be expensive when they do.
Australia is more than capable of making world class cars, and they do. Hence why one of them is about to be exported to the US again. The other from the blue brand should have been exported YEARS ago, but head office politics prevented it.
Me thinks the good old aussie bogan might be trying to escape their roots by dissin' the locals. A bogan will always remain a bogan, even if doing the Flavor Flav thing with a Euro badge hangin' off the bling is trying to prove differently...

[Pickles]

Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

Thanks, for a well thought out & well written post.
You make a lot of sense. For sure, I do NOT want to agree with much that you've said, but I find that I have to, because it really is the way things are.
Thanks, Pickles.

[80LD]

This is partially relevant, but I found this speech at an industry meeting last year to be quite interesting.

It's a long read, but it certainly gives some additional perspective

http://www.fapm.com.au/Portals/0/eNe...%20-%20MDW.pdf

[Hi Octane]

Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

This man is correct.

[SUZUKI MALISHA]

Sorry mate, but if you believe that, then I think you are burying your head in the sand. We do not build some of the best cars in the world, not by a long shot. While Holden and Ford do a fantastic job for the miniscule volume and tiny budgets they have, therein lies the problem. To design and build less than 40,000 Commodores a year and have no realistic expectation for multiplying that number by at least 10 is a recipe for suicide in the modern, incredibly competitive and oversupplied car industry. Aussie cars are neither high quality nor sophisticated in their engineering, have no sensible economies of scale and are no longer sufficiently to the taste of the buyers in Australia, let alone the rest of the world. As a package, a VE Commodore is not a remotely attractive combination (size, price, quality, technology, fuel consumption, function etc) to sell in sufficiently viable numbers in most countries. What Pom, Froggie, German, Japanese, etc would remotely consider one, except maybe a handful of VXR8s? Frankly, why would you, as they are so unsuited to their market?

If you disagree, please point to the countries where they would sell well and in significant numbers and why - because even the Americans are no longer volume buyers of large RWD cars. This is why the VF SS will be sold there as a premium car in low volume - its too expensive and there are too few buyers for it to be otherwise. In Europe they don't want a very large RWD car unless it is a premium one. Holden is simply making the wrong type of car for the market, and to generate the big sales and export numbers that would enable investment, engineering and quality even with a high dollar.

Holden's big problem is volume. VW sold over 9 million cars last year, but most importantly, probably more than half of those came from one platform - Golf - plus shared engines, gearboxes suspensions, electronics, dash and seat structures etc etc. Huge economies of scale. No wonder they are making giant profits. The numbers that other mass market makers do with shared platforms and components are also high - it is the only way to invest enough and compete now.

I think you are dreamin' if you believe that people don't buy Commodores/Falcons because they don't know about them or haven't tried them and "discovered" they really like them. It is up to the maker to build what the customers want, at a viable price on both sides. Sadly, GM and Holden have not moved with the competition or the customers - even Fiat, Ford, Peugeot etc have woken up some time ago to the changing realities of the world, and their domestic, car markets.

hate to bring this up with facts but you are not entirely correct. Just because they don't sell well, or you think they wont doesn't mean they shouldn't, or are bad cars. Look at the Australian designed Ranger. Its won many world awards and is miles ahead of the much more popular hilux. The ford territory is an amazing allrounder, built and benchmarked from the far more expensive bmw x5 series and is well known for its superior driveability comfort and noise levels among other things. Not to mention price...but that's the same with any of our aussie cars. What about the sedans for value.....topgear have on many occasions pointed out that the Turbo falcons are the best performance sedans in the world under 100K. Not to mention the only reason the maloos(fastest ute in world) didn't sell well in Britain was a no brainer..big car in a little country. Anyway....
So yes next time save your breath..... my point was NOT whether they sell well or not...it was that the car industry in Australia has proven over time that it can do good things and is an asset to Australia and we should support it. If you look at the stats...holden actually got far less per car then ford did so maybe questions should be asked about that????