VF Commodore revealed - Official details and pics - Part 3

[falcom]

According to the news story in carsguide regarding the NRL Sponsorship deal with Holden the VF Commodore will be revealed next week.

See story here : http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and...tate_of_origin


Let's hope the long wait for VF has been worth it and that Holden doesn't price it out of the market.

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here by falcom Titled VF Commodore revealed - Official details and pics from post #216 onwards

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here by falcom Titled VF Commodore revealed - Official details and pics- Part 2

[Moderators]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

[Jag530G]

I read that part but I'm still confused. If I purchase the car and winter comes around, do I have to go and purchase new tires for winter???

Basically if you live in the sun belt you could get away with them all year round (Florida, So-Cal, New Mexico, Arizona etc) but other wise you'd need winter tyres or simply fit the car with all weather tyres if the snow isn't so bad.

Its why American cars pretty much went front wheel drive over the years because it is more stable in icy/snow conditions. Easier for odinary drivers to control the car.

Merc/BMW/Cadillac offer AWD versions of their sedans (C/E/S Class, 3/5/7 series, ATS/CTS/XTS) in the the US market because of the varied road conditions.

Cheers, Matthew

[Drizt]

Its why American cars pretty much went front wheel drive over the years because it is more stable in icy/snow conditions. Easier for odinary drivers to control the car.

I thought that was a myth ?

From my experience I prefer driving rear wheel drive (over front wheel drive) in all conditions.

[Ghosn]

Basically if you live in the sun belt you could get away with them all year round (Florida, So-Cal, New Mexico, Arizona etc) but other wise you'd need winter tyres or simply fit the car with all weather tyres if the snow isn't so bad.

Its why American cars pretty much went front wheel drive over the years because it is more stable in icy/snow conditions. Easier for odinary drivers to control the car.

Merc/BMW/Cadillac offer AWD versions of their sedans (C/E/S Class, 3/5/7 series, ATS/CTS/XTS) in the the US market because of the varied road conditions.

Cheers, Matthew

Yep, understand now. I was reading winter and just thinking 'rain' like we mainly get here, forgetting their winter = snow basically.

[Jag530G]

I thought that was a myth ?

From my experience I prefer driving rear wheel drive (over front wheel drive) in all conditions.

If I had to drive on icy roads for many days I'd go FWD (if AWD wasn't available). The fun of RWD would wear off pretty quickly I feel. Keeping a RWD car straight on icy roads requires a lot more concentration then a FWD car, for the average driver, that's the key.

A front wheel drive car will tend more understeer than a rear wheel drive car or worse, a rear engine RWD car which naturally oversteers. The problem, for example when accelerating, is that the force due to acceleration is behind the centre of mass, therefore sets up a "moment" leading the rear end fish-tailing on a surface where the front wheels have low grip. A FWD car has the accelerative force at the front wheels, ahead of the centre of mass, the "moment" this creates leads to the car tending to stay in a straight line, it is naturally more stable.

If anyone is reading this and is struggling to understand the physics, the opposite scenario would be if you are braking and the rear wheels lock up, you are in danger of spinning because the retarding force is at the front of the car ahead of the centre of mass which sets up a "moment". With no rear wheel grip to keep the car in a straight line (ie rear brakes locked up and rear wheels skidding) then the rear end will swing out. If you are braking and only the front wheels lock up the car will simply stop in a straight line. The retarding force is at the rear of the car as the rear brakes slow the car which is behind the centre of mass, the moment set up tends to bring the car back into line.

Cheers, Matthew

[Smitty]

.....

A front wheel drive car will tend more understeer than a rear wheel drive car or worse, a rear engine RWD car which naturally oversteers. The problem, for example when accelerating, is that the force due to acceleration is behind the centre of mass, therefore sets up a "moment" leading the rear end fish-tailing on a surface where the front wheels have low grip. A FWD car has the accelerative force at the front wheels, ahead of the centre of mass, the "moment" this creates leads to the car tending to stay in a straight line, it is naturally more stable................
Cheers, Matthew

haha..you have obviously never driven a HQ Holden
its understeered and understeered and understeered
plus it had scrub understeer... all engineered in by the GM HQ engineering gurus of the time.

one of my first cars was a HQ Kingswood... 4 wheel drum brakes ,manual steering, LSD diff
and a 308 4 speed drivetrain on CROSSPLY tyres

at full lock (left or right..take your pick) and full noise it would go straight on
..as I said understeer

and as i found out years later when working for GMH (as it was then)..that handling design (and result)
was what GM dictated for all of its cars..FWD RWD didn't matter. The notorious rear engine Corvair
understeered .. and because of the lump of an engine out back it also oversteered

...fun


which was also the result when some years later I drove my brother-in-laws Turbo Ford XR2 in the UK
...during winter (we visited the family at Christmas) . FWD with a turbo on a light switch of an
accelerator pedal made for some interesting stances on icy UK tarmac

[Jag530G]

haha..you have obviously never driven a HQ Holden
its understeered and understeered and understeered
plus it had scrub understeer... all engineered in by the GM HQ engineering gurus of the time.

and as i found out years later when working for GMH (as it was then)..that handling design (and result)
was what GM dictated for all of its cars..FWD RWD didn't matter. The notorious rear engine Corvair
understeered .. and because of the lump of an engine out back it also oversteered

...fun

Car maker dial in varying amounts of understeer because of the stability and ease of driving for average drivers. It's simply safer for an average driver to drive an understeering car. FWDs understeer more than RWDs and more again than RWD rear engine cars like the 911, Corvair, Beetle.

I learnt to drive in an HT 186 and HJ 202 and yes "appreciate" GM's chassis tuning of the time, the steering wheel was just a dial-you-own-level-of-understeer device...

Three basic aspects of tuning a car for understeer or oversteer are tyre pressures front vs rear, roll bar stiffness front vs rear and weight distribution front vs rear. You mention the Corvair, with its massive rear weight distribution bias and no front anti-roll bar it was a natural oversteerer but GM tried to mitigate that fact with very low tyre pressures in the front and high tyre pressures in the back. Of course owners didn't have a clue why the difference in tyre pressures and simply filled the tyres equally and the car turned into an oversteering "unsafe at any speed" death trap. (BTW, it was only really the non-Monza 1st gen Corvairs that were dangerous, the 1st gen Monza had a front anti-roll bar and the 2nd gen cars also had double wishbone suspension at the back that calmed everything down)

Cheers, Matthew

[Troutman]

Ponatiac G8 owners have reported being impressed with their cars' performance in winter conditions (with the correct tyres). These days with ESP etc, a lot of the old FWD vs RWD arguments are less of a factor.

[RARASV8]

haha..you have obviously never driven a HQ Holden
its understeered and understeered and understeered
plus it had scrub understeer... all engineered in by the GM HQ engineering gurus of the time.

one of my first cars was a HQ Kingswood... 4 wheel drum brakes ,manual steering, LSD diff
and a 308 4 speed drivetrain on CROSSPLY tyres

at full lock (left or right..take your pick) and full noise it would go straight on
..as I said understeer

and as i found out years later when working for GMH (as it was then)..that handling design (and result)
was what GM dictated for all of its cars..FWD RWD didn't matter. The notorious rear engine Corvair
understeered .. and because of the lump of an engine out back it also oversteered

...fun


which was also the result when some years later I drove my brother-in-laws Turbo Ford XR2 in the UK
...during winter (we visited the family at Christmas) . FWD with a turbo on a light switch of an
accelerator pedal made for some interesting stances on icy UK tarmac

you forgot about LC-LJ Toranas steering LOCKING on FULL LOCK.
i was @ MATEC in the 80's and saw the GTR-X getting moved and the driver got the steering "LOCKED" and drove into one of the Management offices.

Garry

[Jamolad]

...the opposite scenario would be if you are braking and the rear wheels lock up, you are in danger of spinning because the retarding force is at the front of the car ahead of the centre of mass which sets up a "moment". With no rear wheel grip to keep the car in a straight line (ie rear brakes locked up and rear wheels skidding) then the rear end will swing out. If you are braking and only the front wheels lock up the car will simply stop in a straight line. The retarding force is at the rear of the car as the rear brakes slow the car which is behind the centre of mass, the moment set up tends to bring the car back into line.

The few times I have locked up was due to the retarded force in the driver's seat.

haha..you have obviously never driven a HQ Holden
its understeered and understeered and understeered
plus it had scrub understeer... all engineered in by the GM HQ engineering gurus of the time.

Same as my very worn 3-on-the-tree 202 Q, and the few times I turned hard and the front wheels held on, it would lean that much I thought I was going to lose my side mirror on the road. Weird feeling when you have almost put your car on its side yet all four wheels are still on the ground.

[Angeldust]

HQ are an experience to drive.. love em. I briefly had a HX and mates of mine also had HQ/HJ/HX's.
DOesn't matter whetaher they're 202 or 308, they are soo slow by todays standards but the thing
was, back then they FELT really fast (and scary) enough.

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

well HQ handled really well compared to the hot EH 179 manuel i had at about 18 LOL and that was better than the EK so they must be getting better ?? lol

[VHSLE]

I'm not wanting to spoil anyone's conversion but wasn't this a thread about the new VF Commodore ?

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

thats wat i thought too LOL