Surprising Power From VE SIDI

[CHEECH86]

tell me if im bring a bit radical with my thinking but would they be able to make a v8 version of the SIDI motor and would it be any good?

[planetdavo]

How many of you guys have actually spent more than a few hours behind the wheel of the cars you are all commenting on?

Perhaps your question should be how many of you guys have even driven any of the cars you are commenting on...
At least I can say that I've had at least a full day in an Aurion, FG 6, alloytec 175 and 190 non-sidi, 3.0 and 3.6 sidi, plus numerous other small and mid size cars.
All in the last 12 months.

[gmh308]

Perhaps your question should be how many of you guys have even driven any of the cars you are commenting on...
At least I can say that I've had at least a full day in an Aurion, FG 6, alloytec 175 and 190 non-sidi, 3.0 and 3.6 sidi, plus numerous other small and mid size cars.
All in the last 12 months.

And........what do you think of all these?

[Party Pete]

I agree with Davo that the 3.0 isn't a dog, but the installation in a car as big and heavy as the Commodore is marketing wank at its worst. Pretty much every test of the 3.0 has shown that it offers very little if any economy advantage over the 3.6, which is consistent with pretty much every small engine option on cars in the past. That's why historically most buyers, fleet and private, upgrade to the bigger engine when there is a choice. Despite Davo's comments about the smaller engine option being popular, there is no real basis to judge because Holden hasn't made the larger engine an option in the lower models and haven't made the smaller engine available in the higher models. So buyers don't have a direct choice. I would guess that if Holden did allow people to option the bigger engine on the Omega and Berlina, most would go with the bigger motor. The really sad part of all of this is that the smaller engine is not cheaper to make, not lighter or more compact, doesn't offer any real economy advantages and is less pleasant to drive. At least the 4 cylinder Camry is cheap to make and therefore is reflected in the price of the car.

[planetdavo]

The main point to remember Pete, and the basis of my posting all along, is that 3.6 SIDI powered SV6 is by far the main 6 cyl model to private buyers, whom often have different priorities to the fleet buyers that usually buy Omega and Berlina.
These are, of course, the two models powered by the smaller 3.0 motor, with their lower listed fuel average and greenhouse gas emissions.
Since private buyers rarely ever buy new Omega's or Berlina's, and large fleets favour lower fuel usage, what's the real point of offering this motor, other than adding undesirable complexity to the whole production and sale process?
Ford have a 4 cyl Falcon coming. The world has changed.

[planetdavo]

And........what do you think of all these?

Aurion: Generally polished drivetrain, but not sewing machine smooth like some claim, with some shimmies and dud gear choices at times. Good performance and economy, soggy handling, crap hvac controls on lower models, footbrake is poo, clearly a Camry otherwise.
Falcon: Good 6cyl motor, pretty good auto, doesn't moan like a taxi these days, front seats sit too high off the floor. Clear dash layout. Note: most don't have a 6 speed auto standard, they more often have a 5 speed, which seems to be forgotten by most for some reason.
VE 3.6 175 non sidi: crap 4 speed auto, good handling for a base model, light but feelsome steering, seating position better than Falcon (lower), still a good looking car 3 years on, dash plastic looking, but clear. Good boot shape.
VE 3.6 190 high output non sidi: (the car I'm currently driving, a Calais) good performance, sounds better than 175 base version, 5 speed auto much better, but does sometimes hunt around for gears, bigger wheels/better tyres with this motor, so better for "pressing on" a bit. Otherwise, same as above.
VE 3.0 sidi: You notice the reduced torque, but with 50% more gears than the previous base model auto, not bad at all. Quite impressive mid range and top end performance for a 3.0 in a heavy car. Sometimes hunts for gears, but it's quite smooth doing so, not thumping around like 4 speed did. Sounds sweet too. Otherwise, same as earlier VE.
VE 3.6 sidi: Impressive "V8 10 years ago" performance, with good economy. Fitted to cars with better tyres/bigger wheels/firmer suspension (usually), so more impressive for people that like to drive. Auto does it's business with minimal fuss, bit less hunting for gears than 3.0 (having more torque). Sounds good revving it out. Otherwise, same as earlier VE.

[Kuzman89]

VE doesn't have the 190kw engine, thats the VZ SV6, try 195

[Aussie Pete]

Just go to Avis and Hertz etc. Even they don't buy Omegas anymore. I rented an SV6 from Avis during the week and not one povo pack to be seen. All SV6 and one XR6 in the lot. Nice to be able to rent a nice car with some added style and features.

[Party Pete]

The point though Davo is that the 3.0 doesn't appear to deliver any fuel economy benefits in real life despite what the sticker on the windscreen says. It would be interesting to hear from someone who actually runs a fleet whether the smaller motor was a plus or minus in the ordering decision and whether there is any fuel economy diffenece between the 3.6 and 3.0 engines overall in a fleet.

[GHZ28]

Well I can tell you that the Queensland Government, police in particular, are now buying Holdens again now that their fuel consumption figure has dropped to the same as the Aurion etc. Holden had been off the general fleet buying scheme because of its poor fuel economy.....relatively of course.

gh

It would be interesting to hear from someone who actually runs a fleet whether the smaller motor was a plus or minus in the ordering decision and whether there is any fuel economy diffenece between the 3.6 and 3.0 engines overall in a fleet.

[Aussie Pete]

Sounds very familiar. Plenty of examples fo smaller engines being duds in real life including:

- VC Commodore Starfire
- EA Falcon 3.2 (died a quiet death even for the taxis!!!)

Same goes for trucks. Seen examples where a C12 CAT costs more to run than a C15 at 500/1850 in part because the drivers thrash/rev them and you have to run a shorter diff like 4.3s vs 4.1.

[Aussie Pete]

Well I can tell you that the Queensland Government, police in particular, are now buying Holdens again now that their fuel consumption figure has dropped to the same as the Aurion etc. Holden had been off the general fleet buying scheme because of its poor fuel economy.....relatively of course.

gh

This is typical of a government dept - they're just doing it for their compliance to carbon emissions etc - they will use kms x advertisied anyhow which in essence is why Holden have been very smart. Ford will likely do very well when the Econetic 4 pot Falcon comes along.

[planetdavo]

Sounds very familiar. Plenty of examples fo smaller engines being duds in real life including:

- VC Commodore Starfire
- EA Falcon 3.2 (died a quiet death even for the taxis!!!)

Your post continues to make the "assumption" that the 3.0 is a "dud".
It isn't. It is a slightly smaller V6 from the same HFV6 engine family, with slightly less power, correspondingly less torque, and slightly better economy.
Pretty much what most people would expect really!
Comparisons to a starfire or a throttle body injected 3.2 EA are faintly ridiculous mate. 3.0 has all the tech and sidi efficiency of the bigger version. It is not de-specced to inefficient TBI like the EA motor, or missing 33% of it's cylinders like a starfire (based as it was off an already low powered 6 cyl).

[planetdavo]

The point though Davo is that the 3.0 doesn't appear to deliver any fuel economy benefits in real life despite what the sticker on the windscreen says. It would be interesting to hear from someone who actually runs a fleet whether the smaller motor was a plus or minus in the ordering decision and whether there is any fuel economy diffenece between the 3.6 and 3.0 engines overall in a fleet.

We sell heaps of cars to fleets.
There is no point getting into arguments over what cars "are getting" out on the roads. Everyone knows that different people drive cars in different ways. Asking a hard driver will give a car a bad rap, whereas an easy driver will give a car a good rap. Plus, sidi has only been out a fairly short period of time.
They usually work off the adr figures, as it's the only way to have a true comparative figure. Whether it translates to the real world is more down to the boof pressing the go pedal...

[planetdavo]

Just go to Avis and Hertz etc. Even they don't buy Omegas anymore. I rented an SV6 from Avis during the week and not one povo pack to be seen. All SV6 and one XR6 in the lot. Nice to be able to rent a nice car with some added style and features.

This is done for resale reasons, as SV6 is the best selling private buyer model. Makes them more popular used too.
More and more fleets do this now. It's exactly why police fleets have all these SS pursuit cars now, rather than special build base models.
Worth more later on.