The slow death of our great Australian cars

[C4B]

I'm happy to substitute the word "handling" for the words "sickness inducing lurching around corners from having such a high centre of gravity", or "skating off the road in the wet on heavily compromised tyres" if it helps...

You really should go for a drive in a modern 4WD.

[planetdavo]

You really should go for a drive in a modern 4WD.

I get to drive many different modern cars...(and not just Holden's, which people seem to assume just because of what pays my wage).
And my post still stands. No matter how improved they get, a good handling SUV can't match or beat a similarly good handling passenger car. One simply cannot bypass the laws of physics. Too much mass too high up combined with compromised tyres will do that.
Some premium brands have tried to reduce the inherent negatives with things like active roll bars and so forth.
That word compromised. But, that same compromise makes them highly practical for most buyers. If you prioritise handling, go a car. If you prioritise practicality, go SUV (hate that bullshite american term). Or more people SHOULD go a wagon, then you can have both handling/performance AND practicality...just they aint "cool" enough for many buyers...

[C4B]

I get to drive many different modern cars...(and not just Holden's, which people seem to assume just because of what pays my wage).
And my post still stands. No matter how improved they get, a good handling SUV can't match or beat a similarly good handling passenger car. One simply cannot bypass the laws of physics. Too much mass too high up combined with compromised tyres will do that.
Some premium brands have tried to reduce the inherent negatives with things like active roll bars and so forth.
That word compromised. But, that same compromise makes them highly practical for most buyers. If you prioritise handling, go a car. If you prioritise practicality, go SUV (hate that bullshite american term). Or more people SHOULD go a wagon, then you can have both handling/performance AND practicality...just they aint "cool" enough for many buyers...

So which 4WD's that you've driven are you basing your comments on?

My comments are based on the following that I've owned or driven:

- Discovery 3
- Prado VX (ie: KDSS equipped)
- Prado Kakadu
- Discovery 4
- Range Rover Sport
- X5
- Pajero
- R51 Pathfinder

[TRY000]

i thought it was really bad when they didnt continue the adventra. i think is one of the best cars they brought out. i guess size weight and sales where a big factor but i know when i want to upgrade from mine ill be buying the same sort of car.

[zorro]

I'm happy to substitute the word "handling" for the words "sickness inducing lurching around corners from having such a high centre of gravity", or "skating off the road in the wet on heavily compromised tyres" if it helps...

Diesel will NOT have helped Commodore or Falcon in any big way. I just don't understand why people keep believing this to be true. There is no chance in hell they could have recouped their investment costs. The problem with the lack of sales in the large car class is NOT the lack of diesel engines! Diesel in Territory worked because the people that buy those sorts of things expect it to be offered.
People (mostly) just want different types of vehicles these days. Times have changed- for better or for worse.

Davo, look past the end of your nose and see where the market is heading. Just because we bathed in the cheap petrol for so long we are a good 10 or so years behind the euros. We won't be driving pedal cars in future we need as many klms a tank as possible and petrol just can't cut it. Even a Torana concept size with a smooth 6spd diesel would have enough poke to keep up with most things.

Opel infact were selling VTs in Europe with 4cyl ecotecs and diesels up until 2003 so the development was already there. Holden have the captiva engines at their disposal, along with anything GM.

[Drewie]

Came across this article on 'The Age' web site...

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...105-28tdg.html

[VYBerlinaV8]

The trouble with our traditional sedans is that they do many things fairly well, but that's not what many people want these days.

Performance car fans want outright performance - they don't want to be dragging 1.8 tonnes of car around.

Families want space, style and fuel economy and are happy to sacrifice performance.

Tradies want load carrying and reliability, and the Japanese/Koreans have it all over the locals.

Of ocurse, these comments are gross generalisations, but they still hold true for many people.

The other problem is that the big sedans don't make the same first impression that they used to. I recently drove a new SV6 for the first time. It went pretty well for a 6, but first impressions were that it was plasticky inside, unrefined when pushed and had some dumb design issues. The Falcon I hired in Melbourne recently seemed better sorted, but gave the impression of startng to feel old and creaky with only 30,000km on the clock. Neither car left me wanting one.

The big locals still have some life left in them, though, and we'll see them for a while yet. But unless the locals get smarter about packaging and quality, I fear their days are numbered.

[steve_t]

I get to drive many different modern cars...(and not just Holden's, which people seem to assume just because of what pays my wage).
And my post still stands. No matter how improved they get, a good handling SUV can't match or beat a similarly good handling passenger car. One simply cannot bypass the laws of physics. Too much mass too high up combined with compromised tyres will do that.
Some premium brands have tried to reduce the inherent negatives with things like active roll bars and so forth.
That word compromised. But, that same compromise makes them highly practical for most buyers. If you prioritise handling, go a car. If you prioritise practicality, go SUV (hate that bullshite american term). Or more people SHOULD go a wagon, then you can have both handling/performance AND practicality...just they aint "cool" enough for many buyers...

So which 4WD's that you've driven are you basing your comments on?

My comments are based on the following that I've owned or driven:

- Discovery 3
- Prado VX (ie: KDSS equipped)
- Prado Kakadu
- Discovery 4
- Range Rover Sport
- X5
- Pajero
- R51 Pathfinder

BMW X6 - less practical, more car-like handling though

[kayman]

BMW X6 - less practical, more car-like handling though

Saw one today. God they look like crap.

[VTSSDUDE]

I have to disagree with the handling for when it comes to 4WD's and sedans. Purely because you can't drive your SS/SSV/Monaro etc for what they are built to do legally on the streets.
So driving a 4WD is just as good, and it's surprising how well a modern 4WD or any 4WD I think with decent suspension setup can handle.
On the race track and some tight corners around the streets or highways, such as through the mountains. Yeah fair enough, a sedan will corner and perform better.
I prefer to drive my Colorado than my SS as it makes the driving more exciting as driving around in the SS is plain boring. Unless I want the boys in blue on my tail.
Also I can get from A to B in my Colorado just as fast as I can in my SS, unless once again I want the boys in blue on my tail.

It is depressing that our Australian cars are becoming endangered. As said, people nowadays like to purchase things that suits their needs, and with that many manufacturers out there with that many different types of vehicles to offer, it has made it hard for Holden and Ford to keep up.

[planetdavo]

So which 4WD's that you've driven are you basing your comments on?

My comments are based on the following that I've owned or driven:

- Discovery 3
- Prado VX (ie: KDSS equipped)
- Prado Kakadu
- Discovery 4
- Range Rover Sport
- X5
- Pajero
- R51 Pathfinder

I knew that one was coming!
Maybe you are too used to these types of vehicles, so you notice more the differences between them?
To answer your question...well, rather than do a full on comparison of the lengths of certain body parts, I've driven various "SUV" options up to, and including, a Porsche Cayenne Turbo.
And yes, that is an immense machine (as it should be for the money), but the question I pose is whether it handles better than, for example, a Porsche Panamera, or similar road cars of a similar price bracket? One would expect an expensive Cayenne to handle better than a cheaparse Suzuki Alto hatch or a grandpa tuned Toyota Camry, so there are obvious cutoff points! But VE, a model raved about for it's handling since it's launch, being outhandled by the likes of a Toyota Prado....???? Prado and similar would be absolutely flogged on tight, twisty roads by VE.

[planetdavo]

Davo, look past the end of your nose and see where the market is heading. Just because we bathed in the cheap petrol for so long we are a good 10 or so years behind the euros. We won't be driving pedal cars in future we need as many klms a tank as possible and petrol just can't cut it. Even a Torana concept size with a smooth 6spd diesel would have enough poke to keep up with most things.

Opel infact were selling VTs in Europe with 4cyl ecotecs and diesels up until 2003 so the development was already there. Holden have the captiva engines at their disposal, along with anything GM.

If you look past the end of your own nose you would be well aware that the increasingly tight emissions regulations (led by Europe) are slowly but surely putting a noose around the neck of the diesel engine. They produce too many nasties, and it's starting to cost a hell of a lot of money to try and meet each regulation change. You know who pays for this don't you?
If my memory is correct the boss of Mercedes Benz said that diesel will be gone in motor vehicles within 15 years, killed off by future Euro emissions upgrades. Time will tell, but would you pay thousands more than you currently would for a diesel car in the future? That's where it's heading...

[Big_Valven]

Unfortunately we're not the right ones to be asking why these cars are becoming less popular.

There are a thousand niches in the automotive world filled by larger manufacturers like VW, BMW and Korean / Japanese manufacturers that small-volume Holden and Ford Aus cannot keep up with. It's too diverse.

I mean, why have a sedan when you can have a niche lifestyle vehicle?

Sadly, very few of these niches concern performance, even in a basic sense. How many car ads do you see that even mention these crazy out there words like "engine" or "handling?" it's about your Ipod and your sound system, or the number of soccer playing kids you can fit in it, or the number of air bags that won't do a thing for you when you inevitably run up the backside of the poor guy you're tailgating in city traffic.

While Holden are still making Commodores they cater to it very well. But there may not be enough plebs buying base models to keep it up. Either that or every parts supplier Holden has will fold...

[zorro]

If you look past the end of your own nose you would be well aware that the increasingly tight emissions regulations (led by Europe) are slowly but surely putting a noose around the neck of the diesel engine. They produce too many nasties, and it's starting to cost a hell of a lot of money to try and meet each regulation change. You know who pays for this don't you?
If my memory is correct the boss of Mercedes Benz said that diesel will be gone in motor vehicles within 15 years, killed off by future Euro emissions upgrades. Time will tell, but would you pay thousands more than you currently would for a diesel car in the future? That's where it's heading...

The Australian CEO of Lexus said that a while ago, actually if my memory serves was around the launch of the hybrid hatch that ran the celebrity race at the GP? MB have invested a lot in the diesel market, notably a lot more than you and I and know. They already have an adblue diesel in its G classes and will be available in more models. Euro 5 compliance is already here and Euro 6 is not far off. Diesel is king in Europe, they aren't just going to cut production they will innovate and move forward. Plus it's easier for them having far superior diesel than the truck shit we have here to fill in our cars. Speaking of trucks, what is going to power them?

I don't doubt in the next 20-30yrs we will be driving some sort of hybrid/hydrogen vehicles however we are here now and in the immediate future and at this point besides camrys (which are not a 4wd nor fit a large family comfortably and Christ I would not pull a loaded trailer with one) are higher end models mostly out of reach for many.

[planetdavo]

What would you expect Lexus Aus to say zorro? They don't have one single diesel model on offer in this country!
Ok, found the reference I was talking about. It was Mercedes Benz' head of engine design that said it, not a suit in an office.

Diesel engines could be on death row in less than 10 years.

Just as the Euro-focussed alternative to petrol power starts to get some traction in Australia, with passenger-car sales forecast to improve to around 15 per cent of the country's annual purchases, Mercedes-Benz engine guru Dr Herbert Kohler says the diesel is in trouble.

He believes stricter emission controls, and the rapidly-improving efficiency of small-capacity gasoline engines, could mean the end of diesels.

"I have some doubts that diesel will survive the next five to ten years," says Kohler, the vice-president of e-Drive and Future Mobility at Benz.

Kohler is still a fan of the current diesel powerplants and says Mercedes-Benz is making solid progress on a hybrid technology, called DiesOtto, that combines the best of the two combustion systems. Engineers have already run test drives and there is promise.

"I'm convinced that will come in total and as described," Kohler says. "They are running on the test bench at the moment. We are driving the first cars. We are able to use both kinds of combustion methods, very smoothly to merge into each other. You cannot feel noise or shaking."

Kohler says Mercedes is currently focussing on a range of technologies under the BlueEfficiency banner, from active aerodynamics to on-demand engine accessories - such as the alternator and power steering - and DiesOtto to improve the performance of petrol engines. There are also turbocharger and supercharger systems, smaller-capacity engines and baby two and three-cylinder motors.

"At the moment we think that with gasoline engines that another 15 per cent (efficiency) is feasible. This is what we think today. Never say never…" he says.

He is also convinced that BlueEfficiency works as an overall approach to better fuel economy and reduced emissions.

"It is always some sort of lighthouse project," Kohler says.

People are already starting to see some of the potential issues creeping into ownership. Besides the increasing requirements of urea additives to cut pollutants, numerous city based owners of current diesels are running into trouble with clogged particulate filters, because they aren't doing the required longer trips to complete the particulate burn off process. Add in the often filthy bowsers in this country, usually higher servicing costs, and (usually) laggy off-idle performance, and they ain't all they are cut up to be. But, as the good doctor says above, the rapidly increasing efficiencies of petrol engines- without all the negatives of diesel engines- is as great a threat as the future emissions standards.

PS: Our VT never went to Europe as an Opel, and it never had a diesel engine anywhere in the world. The only VT based cars that went to Europe were some (petrol powered) HSV's and Monaro's. Think you might be confusing it with the Opel model that provided the basic design for the VT. Our VT used much of the "top hat" Opel design (with local alterations) onto a modified version of the previous Commodore chassis. Underneath VT wasn't even CLOSE to the Opel of the time, even if the door shells look awfully familiar, so you can't say "VT had a diesel engine". They were two very different cars.
In manufacturer land (as opposed to aftermarket land), just having a diesel engine available that fits into the engine bay means NOTHING to the end result. Without decent export potential, the cost per unit (car) to engineer in this engine for just Australia's small sales volumes would be MASSIVE.