FPV's 351kw GT-F more powerful than HSV's 430kw GTS, How did this happen?

[FFAMan]

I'm not weighing into the pissing content, but I have a question about the transient overboost. How long can/does the blower provide the extra boost in the real world? Can it be maintained for lasting periods of time, or is it a quick spray of extra boost for a short period of time and then that's it? ie. the bugger all time a car spends at high RPM on a dyno suits the transient nature, and really real world how long do most people spend at sustained high RPM?

I'm sure I will get flamed with "I spend all my time at 6,000rpm!", but I'm talking day driver types and those drivers with mechanical sympathy.

The term "Overboost" is probably a bit misleading, its more like full boost. THe ECU will allow the Miami engine to use full boost until it see's conditions unfavorable, i.e inlet temperatures, it will then bleed off boost. The Miami 351 engine will keep making 408+fwkw until something is detected, it will then pull boost out of the equation.

Also Full boost is not available in first gear and below 4000 rpm.

Effectively an I/Cooler would allow Ford to quote the max number all the time, but under testing requirements they can only quote the worst case scenario number, i.e 351kw.

Hope this explains it.

[SUZUKI MALISHA]

The term "Overboost" is probably a bit misleading, its more like full boost. THe ECU will allow the Miami engine to use full boost until it see's conditions unfavorable, i.e inlet temperatures, it will then bleed off boost. The Miami 351 engine will keep making 408+fwkw until something is detected, it will then pull boost out of the equation.

Also Full boost is not available in first gear and below 4000 rpm.

Effectively an I/Cooler would allow Ford to quote the max number all the time, but under testing requirements they can only quote the worst case scenario number, i.e 351kw.

Hope this explains it.

And then you add in the ecu restrictions built in cutting power in the lower gears to prevent drivetrain stress. No doubt having better driveline like the GTS would allow the GTF to use all of that power sooner!
It shows tho that with a "full boost" feature allowed to stay on as long as temps stay low enough.... that it's not the driveline their protecting as much as the engine, seeing as it has no inter cooler!

[SV805]

So has something changed recently that I have missed. Are most cars slightly different in power and you get better ones than others. Where these two tests done on the same GTS and GTF. If not would you not expect to have potential differences.

Everyone is saying how could the GTF come in so low as it is more powerful than the 335.....Given that it is obvious that the 335 is a more than that standard, Ford may not have actually done much at all and wouldn't surprise me at all if the standard 335 and the 351 come up at the same level.

[FFAMan]

And then you add in the ecu restrictions built in cutting power in the lower gears to prevent drivetrain stress. No doubt having better driveline like the GTS would allow the GTF to use all of that power sooner!
It shows tho that with a "full boost" feature allowed to stay on as long as temps stay low enough.... that it's not the driveline their protecting as much as the engine, seeing as it has no inter cooler!

Pretty much, it explains a number of things, with an intercooler and stronger rear end the GT-F would comfortably used all that power, sooner and put the numbers down that its capable off. Just look at tuned 335's with the restrictions removed...

[SV805]

Also of note is the latest Motor issue (Not Wheels ) that compare the GTF against the more Level playing field of HSV R8. Although the GTF had more power and quicker numbers , Writer still rates the R8 as a better car and at a cheaper price. " Choosing a winner was easier than expected. It is the way the Clubsport feels a whole generation younger than the GTF"

So Motor feels the R8 is a better car. Fo those who want better again you can have the GTS.

[JimmyXR6T04]

Also of note is the latest Motor issue (Not Wheels ) that compare the GTF against the more Level playing field of HSV R8. Although the GTF had more power and quicker numbers , Writer still rates the R8 as a better car and at a cheaper price. " Choosing a winner was easier than expected. It is the way the Clubsport feels a whole generation younger than the GTF"

So Motor feels the R8 is a better car. Fo those who want better again you can have the GTS.

Of course it feels a generation ahead, it is! The GT-F is still based off the 2008 FG. Having said that, it really depends on what the buyer wants. I could never be happy with an R8, knowing for about the same price, maybe cheaper i could have a factory S/C GT. Interior, tech, functions etc never even entered my thought process when buying. It was down to 2 cars, the GT and GTS. Unfortunately (perhaps fortunately), i managed to get a new GT for 60k, and that sealed the deal. If i had to spend 70-75k on a GT, i would have gone the GTS. But for 40k less, the GT is more than enough, and i've actually really grown to like the rawness of it all.

Some people will be the opposite to me, and no matter the engine, they'd go the R8 because of the tech etc... horses for courses. For me to get an R8 to nearly 370rwkw, would have cost me a lot more to do than it has in the GT, and by god i love driving the GT with that much power... Sure, it's not all about power, but to me, this time around, it was and especially because it's not a daily driver... so the GT made sense. Again, not everyone mods either... but i'm in the minority who decide to roll the dice on warranty!

With my next round of mods, i'll be aiming for approx 440rwkw, and it'll still owe me under 75-80k... not bad going i reckon! Having said all that, if i was the sort of person to take it to the track often, i'd have outlayed the extra for the GTS, it's more purposely designed for that sort of thing, and would hold up to the task better i believe.

Either way, the real clincher is, how many can actually afford a GT, let alone a GTS... A lot of the arguments are from people who will never own, let alone drive either, so at the end of the day, i don't really give a hoot what car goes quicker, more powerful etc, at least i get to own one of them, and perhaps one of each in the not too distant future!

Anyway, back on topic - I'm guessing the revised dyno test will show more than 311rwkw, unless the GT-F has an issue, or is one of those freak cars that is underpowered from the factory, just like you get some freaks that make more.

[Jag530G]

So has something changed recently that I have missed. Are most cars slightly different in power and you get better ones than others. Where these two tests done on the same GTS and GTF. If not would you not expect to have potential differences.

Everyone is saying how could the GTF come in so low as it is more powerful than the 335.....Given that it is obvious that the 335 is a more than that standard, Ford may not have actually done much at all and wouldn't surprise me at all if the standard 335 and the 351 come up at the same level.

^^^This. Why does anyone expect the 351 engine to produce more rear wheel power running at full boost in versus the 335 engine? Perhaps the only difference between the engines is how much boost is bled off when the engine inlet temps get hot. What I am saying as that in ideal circumstances (cold inlet temps etc) both the 335 and 351 both produce around 400kw at the flywheel and consequently the rear wheel power on the dyno is also going to be similar. The only difference is when the inlet temps rise, the 351 engine doesn't lose as much power. Perhaps the peak "ideal conditions" pwer for the 335 and 351 engines is the same, at around 400KW flywheel, consequently this might be why the 311RWKW figure on the dyno is fair enough and no more than what would be expected of the 335 engine's RWKW figure in ideal conditions.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Cheers, Matthew

[adr8]

I just checked the Wheels facebook page and noticed a comment made by Matt Jackson from HP-F, “An auto VF GTS makes 310rwkw on the Horsepower Factory Dyno. If anybody thinks the GT-F will make 'near' 351rwkw on a reputable dyno he has rocks in his head”

I then had a look at the HP-F website and they have a dyno sheet of a stock GT with 282rwkw. The difference between the GTS (310rwkw) and GT (282rwkw) that HP-F got is very similar to the difference VCM has for the GTS (330rwkw) and GT-F (311rwkw), so it just goes to show that both VCM & HP-F show a 20-30rwkw difference between the GTS and GT-F which contradicts what the other publication posted.

Have posted dyno sheets from Bullet Performance Racing a Ford tuner to balance the ledger, stock GT 284rwkw and stock GS 262rwkw.

I also remember reading a post on AFF a couple of years ago and Rob Herrod himself even said that the GS makes about 270rwkw and the GT 280rwkw.

http://www.hp-f.com.au/catalog/ford/...5-0lt-stage-1/



http://bulletperformanceracing.com.a...-falcon-coyote

[offshore]

I think the other publication was a scam helped setup by Ford if you read what Street Machine magazine said on the HSV forum thread Ford wasnt happy at all about the VCM dyno results and rushed out the other higher results at the same time.

[Vulture]

They really need to drain the fuel and replace in both cars if it is to be a true comparison. Recommended tyre pressures etc.
It's sad how the FPV cheer squad are hanging onto this like grim death.
The GTS is still the overwhelmingly better car, a few rwkw here or there notwithstanding.

[csv rulz]

Who really cares whose dipstick is bigger. Both are great cars and we are lucky to have them, end of story

[TuffR8]

Funnily enough most 1/4 mile and 0-100 runs I've seen show the gt getting the better launch, with the gts struggling to get traction only to see it pull the ford in (quickly) and pull car lengths on it... That's weird, if it was all in the wider rubber and gearing wouldn't the roll on acceleration show that up? The gts dominates the gt in every arena.. Doesn't make sense does it?

[white lie]

The Ford won't have full boost, off the line, making it easier to launch but explains why the GTS reels it in quickly.

[dogsballs]

I think the other publication was a scam helped setup by Ford if you read what Street Machine magazine said on the HSV forum thread Ford wasnt happy at all about the VCM dyno results and rushed out the other higher results at the same time.

The ford in the sm is a factory car from showroom, it has been mentioned in a few places that ford asked sm to not publish the data from the factory car for a few days. The car provided to wheels was a provided by ford.

The tie down argument is a joke, pic was prior to full pull.

Arguments are nine and void seeing all the fpv are sold.

More interesting question is what the last xr8s going to do

[JimmyXR6T04]

The last XR8 will essentially be what the GS was IMO. Either the 335 or 315 tuned motor, small brakes, skinny tyres... that's what i'm guessing anyway. Will still be an awesome package and should be priced accordingly to the SS. Fantastic bang for buck i reckon.

I suppose time will tell though.