Who still owns a Holden?

[Red CV8 R]

This post above made me think. I've owned heaps of different cars but when I looked back, quite a few Holden's. Including company cars, I've had 12. I really have a soft spot for the old VL Calais Turbo though. My first two cars were genuine Calais Turbo. I was very close to buying a VL Walkinshaw when I purchased my VP HSV Senator 5000i instead. 136/136.

I dropped a bundle sorting the HSV and then sold it to someone from here for peanuts. It would have been more sensible buying the Walkinshaw without doubt. Odd sentiment for the winged wonder vs a sensible Senator, I know. But it was one of the few HSVs still rising back in those days. Let alone now, of course. Pity my Girlfriend at the time told me she would dump me if I purchased such a hideous looking car.

Still, I was very sad to hear my Senator was apparently written off in Perth. I did love that car but I ended up unable to insure it as such a young fella, and had no where to store it. I would have held it otherwise. Not a car you can replace.

[Pickles]

I don't own a Holden at the moment.
Holdens I've owned. '58 FC Special, EH 179 Auto, HR Premier 186m, A9X sedan, VK Group A, VL Group A P.P., VN Group A, '04 CV8 Monaro, HSV VZ GTO, and we've recently sold our VF GTSR.
They've all had their good & bad points.
I'm really missing having "something" in the garage, spare parts for some are a bit of a worry, so maybe I'll buy another Holden, maybe I won't, I don't know at the moment, the stratospheric prices for some is a little "off putting" as well. Several of the cars I've owned, I simply couldn't afford now.
Karen's had a series of Audis (what's that got to do with this thread you may say!), and recently took delivery of a new RSQ3, which is a small SUV/S.W. sort of vehicle, but it's a rocket with a 2.5L 5 cyl turbo 400hp engine with Quattro (A.W.D.) & it's a great little machine, it would easily outperform most of the cars I've owned, so riding in this has eased the pain (of not having a Holden V8 in the garage) somewhat, but OF COURSE, it does not have the "magic" driving experience of a Holden V8.
Anyway, I just have to say, I really miss the "Holden Brand".
Pickles.

[whitels1ss]

I don't own a Holden at the moment.
Holdens I've owned. '58 FC Special, EH 179 Auto, HR Premier 186m, A9X sedan, VK Group A, VL Group A P.P., VN Group A, '04 CV8 Monaro, HSV VZ GTO, and we've recently sold our VF GTSR.
They've all had their good & bad points.
I'm really missing having "something" in the garage, spare parts for some are a bit of a worry, so maybe I'll buy another Holden, maybe I won't, I don't know at the moment, the stratospheric prices for some is a little "off putting" as well. Several of the cars I've owned, I simply couldn't afford now.
Karen's had a series of Audis (what's that got to do with this thread you may say!), and recently took delivery of a new RSQ3, which is a small SUV/S.W. sort of vehicle, but it's a rocket with a 2.5L 5 cyl turbo 400hp engine with Quattro (A.W.D.) & it's a great little machine, it would easily outperform most of the cars I've owned, so riding in this has eased the pain (of not having a Holden V8 in the garage) somewhat, but OF COURSE, it does not have the "magic" driving experience of a Holden V8.
Anyway, I just have to say, I really miss the "Holden Brand".
Pickles.

Very impressive list there Martin.

Sorry to hear you sold the GTSR.

What are you going to get to fill in it's space in the garage?

[BLACK 346]

I don't own a Holden at the moment.
Holdens I've owned. '58 FC Special, EH 179 Auto, HR Premier 186m, A9X sedan, VK Group A, VL Group A P.P., VN Group A, '04 CV8 Monaro, HSV VZ GTO, and we've recently sold our VF GTSR.
They've all had their good & bad points.
I'm really missing having "something" in the garage, spare parts for some are a bit of a worry, so maybe I'll buy another Holden, maybe I won't, I don't know at the moment, the stratospheric prices for some is a little "off putting" as well. Several of the cars I've owned, I simply couldn't afford now.
Karen's had a series of Audis (what's that got to do with this thread you may say!), and recently took delivery of a new RSQ3, which is a small SUV/S.W. sort of vehicle, but it's a rocket with a 2.5L 5 cyl turbo 400hp engine with Quattro (A.W.D.) & it's a great little machine, it would easily outperform most of the cars I've owned, so riding in this has eased the pain (of not having a Holden V8 in the garage) somewhat, but OF COURSE, it does not have the "magic" driving experience of a Holden V8.
Anyway, I just have to say, I really miss the "Holden Brand".
Pickles.

Some pretty desirable Lions have passed through your shed Pickles. There is a small article on the VN Grouip A in the latest Unique Cars mag. One in showroom condition went for
a record $266,000 and one that was described as in unremarkable condition went for what they said is a disappointing but realistic $126,000. As you say, a lot of money when you see what you can get new for half of that money or less. Only reason I got a second Holden (my VU SS Ute) was that I was able to find one in pretty good nick a couple of years back for what I considered was reasonable money. Even saying that though , I had to pour quite a bit into it to get it where I was happy.

[Red CV8 R]

I understand where Pickles is at. I have to be honest, despite my history of Holden's, if I had not owned mine since new, I doubt I would have one. Parts availability being my biggest concern (let's be clear, that doesn't just affect Holden's either), plus I would have to consider what else the same dollars could buy me.

Classic, performance Holden's and HSV cars are a lot of money for what they are. Supply and demand though. Group A cars in particular. I couldn't justify the prices these cars pull when I could own some exotic cars for the same dollars. I feel you either need to be an investor, collector or for these particular cars to be your ultimate dream to pay these sorts of dollars. Then, they usually get hidden away and not used at all. I would rather own a Porsche and get to drive it how I want.

It would have been nice to have owned a VL Walkinshaw or VN Group A Holden, (R32 GTR as well actually), but the reality is that I would not have purchased my Monaro if I had if purchased any of these back in the day.
I only had space for 2 cars and insurance was bad enough on the Monaro (not $21k per year in 2002 that was the best offer on my VP Senator though). To me, my warmed over Monaro is my ultimate Holden. I would not trade it for any other HSV or Holden. I love it! So, no regrets!

[Pickles]

I understand where Pickles is at. I have to be honest, despite my history of Holden's, if I had not owned mine since new, I doubt I would have one. Parts availability being my biggest concern (let's be clear, that doesn't just affect Holden's either), plus I would have to consider what else the same dollars could buy me.

Classic, performance Holden's and HSV cars are a lot of money for what they are. Supply and demand though. Group A cars in particular. I couldn't justify the prices these cars pull when I could own some exotic cars for the same dollars. I feel you either need to be an investor, collector or for these particular cars to be your ultimate dream to pay these sorts of dollars. Then, they usually get hidden away and not used at all. I would rather own a Porsche and get to drive it how I want.

It would have been nice to have owned a VL Walkinshaw or VN Group A Holden, (R32 GTR as well actually), but the reality is that I would not have purchased my Monaro if I had if purchased any of these back in the day.
I only had space for 2 cars and insurance was bad enough on the Monaro (not $21k per year in 2002 that was the best offer on my VP Senator though). To me, my warmed over Monaro is my ultimate Holden. I would not trade it for any other HSV or Holden. I love it! So, no regrets!

Yes, I see that I have some "common ground" with you.
I'm glad that you mentioned spare parts, that is a concern that I have should I ever buy another Holden product.
Which model Monaro do you have, & how do you find spare parts, servicing etc?
Regards, Pickles.

[Smitty]

I don't own a Holden at the moment.
Holdens I've owned. '58 FC Special, EH 179 Auto, HR Premier 186m, A9X sedan, VK Group A, VL Group A P.P., VN Group A, '04 CV8 Monaro, HSV VZ GTO, and we've recently sold our VF GTSR.
They've all had their good & bad points.
I'm really missing having "something" in the garage, spare parts for some are a bit of a worry, so maybe I'll buy another Holden, maybe I won't, I don't know at the moment, the stratospheric prices for some is a little "off putting" as well. Several of the cars I've owned, I simply couldn't afford now.
Karen's had a series of Audis (what's that got to do with this thread you may say!), and recently took delivery of a new RSQ3, which is a small SUV/S.W. sort of vehicle, but it's a rocket with a 2.5L 5 cyl turbo 400hp engine with Quattro (A.W.D.) & it's a great little machine, it would easily outperform most of the cars I've owned, so riding in this has eased the pain (of not having a Holden V8 in the garage) somewhat, but OF COURSE, it does not have the "magic" driving experience of a Holden V8.
Anyway, I just have to say, I really miss the "Holden Brand".
Pickles.

nice list Martin....

I won't do all mine .. coz I had a habit of buying my GMH company cars (kept for a while, handed to the missus and sold off mainly within the family)
some are notable in that they are are... HZ Prem wagon, full electrics with 308 4speed, one of the first VB SL/e 308 4 speed '308' sports packs built
VC L wagon, special build (coz 308s did not go in wagons) 308 4 speed.. country suspension, HD axle, drove it the gates at Salmon St and 10 days later
it was in Katherine (NT) via Quilpie and Birdsville. pity the GMH car rules got me... you buy them or hand them back at 6 months or 10,000
(Had 17 Holdens in my time there)

the L wagon? I drove in the gates the first day back from holidays with 12,000km on it ( I came home via Mt ISa and Townsville)

Other notables I had.... HD Special sedan, manual X2 version.. white over green, manual big tank HT GTS350 Monaro (loved that car but fuel costs killed me)
so it went as a trade-on on a LJ XU1.

Then more recent... VR 5.0 manual Berlina 'HSV Improved', VT SS sedan with the last of the Holden 5.0 engines .. traded for a VX SS for the new 'LS' engine
(TOTAL disaster that car... engine rebuilds, new diffs (2) and gearboxes (2) plus... electrics, power windows kept dying) then VZ SS wagon (nice...)
a couple of VE SSV wagons (painful having to wait for manual versions to be built) then a E3 manual Clubbie wagon

and of course my current ride... a manual (dealer and HSV said it was the last built) GenF Clubbie R8 wagon (I ordered it with the SV engine too)

spares....? I have been quietly talking to dealers, on Fleabay and Gumtree, FB market places picking up the odd spare part.. not the usual
rad hose or PCV valve but body parts (B pillar covers) and trim.. console and seat parts and the like

Ownership will be harder in the future, that is certain

[Red CV8 R]

Yes, I see that I have some "common ground" with you.
I'm glad that you mentioned spare parts, that is a concern that I have should I ever buy another Holden product.
Which model Monaro do you have, & how do you find spare parts, servicing etc?
Regards, Pickles.

I own an 04 Monaro CV8-R.

Unlike most, my goal has been to make it a factory style performance car, a GTS + if that makes sense. It has the usual bolt on plus a baby cam and heads. I've made a lot of "reliability" mods with the engine changes. In tandem with the 04 LS being the best of the breed (basically an LS6 without the 243 heads), I hope it will be reliable for the life of the car. Especially as I don't do big KMs. The car ran mid 12s in 100% street trim, so it's not slow compared to the new stuff.

I've spent decent coin on suspension, brakes and tyres, plus stuff like 3.9 diff gears, True-Trac, short shifter etc. This all keeps the car feeling modern but it looks like a standard CV8-R. I would not have been happy with the standard Monaro performance wise, this car now feels amazing on the street.

Maintenance / modifications was hit and miss for me. I had two shops I happily used for over a decade, one for maintenance and one for performance work. I didn't ever take this car to a Holden dealer. The car has been extremely reliable. The performance shop got too popular, uncontactable due to work load. The general mechanic shut down. I then had a lot of "interesting" experiences through various shops. I've now got a good mechanic for maintenance and had all the engine stuff redone by a former forum sponsor who got my combo humming again with my chosen cam. It's where I will go from now on.

The downside is without doubt parts. I'm lucky as far as I have not needed much at all so far. However, replacement of Monaro specific parts is difficult. CV8-R parts, nearly impossible as there was only 300 odd 04 cars made. Probably worse than most HSVs. I'm hoping I don't need any of these parts any time soon. However, I have been trying to get those simple door strikers mentioned in the other thread. A few years ago, easy and cheap to get. Now, impossible to buy new. That's the parts future we face. Not alone there, common for performance heroes of the 2000s now, think WRX, EVO etc. We can only hope the aftermarket will step up.

I think if I were looking for a new toy now, unless I was buying something with ultra low KMs, new condition and a known history, I would skip the probable pain with a used Holden/ HSV and buy something else. I particularly like Porsche not only the performance and style, but for the robustness of their cars, and the way they keep up the supply of parts for most older cars. You pay though, and Covid made that worse.

[Pickles]

nice list Martin....

I won't do all mine .. coz I had a habit of buying my GMH company cars (kept for a while, handed to the missus and sold off mainly within the family)
some are notable in that they are are... HZ Prem wagon, full electrics with 308 4speed, one of the first VB SL/e 308 4 speed '308' sports packs built
VC L wagon, special build (coz 308s did not go in wagons) 308 4 speed.. country suspension, HD axle, drove it the gates at Salmon St and 10 days later
it was in Katherine (NT) via Quilpie and Birdsville. pity the GMH car rules got me... you buy them or hand them back at 6 months or 10,000
(Had 17 Holdens in my time there)

the L wagon? I drove in the gates the first day back from holidays with 12,000km on it ( I came home via Mt ISa and Townsville)

Other notables I had.... HD Special sedan, manual X2 version.. white over green, manual big tank HT GTS350 Monaro (loved that car but fuel costs killed me)
so it went as a trade-on on a LJ XU1.

Then more recent... VR 5.0 manual Berlina 'HSV Improved', VT SS sedan with the last of the Holden 5.0 engines .. traded for a VX SS for the new 'LS' engine
(TOTAL disaster that car... engine rebuilds, new diffs (2) and gearboxes (2) plus... electrics, power windows kept dying) then VZ SS wagon (nice...)
a couple of VE SSV wagons (painful having to wait for manual versions to be built) then a E3 manual Clubbie wagon

and of course my current ride... a manual (dealer and HSV said it was the last built) GenF Clubbie R8 wagon (I ordered it with the SV engine too)

spares....? I have been quietly talking to dealers, on Fleabay and Gumtree, FB market places picking up the odd spare part.. not the usual
rad hose or PCV valve but body parts (B pillar covers) and trim.. console and seat parts and the like

Ownership will be harder in the future, that is certain

Some VERY special cars there my friend, Obviously you had some very special times with Holden,.....maybe you could start a thread, "My times with Holden"?....I'm absolutely positive it would be very well received & create a lot of interest on this forum.
My favorite of "Your" cars,....DEFINITELY the 308 HZ Premier Wagon,....haven't seen an original 5L one of those for many years,...must be the scarcest of the scarce.
Regards, Martin.

[Pickles]

I own an 04 Monaro CV8-R.

Unlike most, my goal has been to make it a factory style performance car, a GTS + if that makes sense. It has the usual bolt on plus a baby cam and heads. I've made a lot of "reliability" mods with the engine changes. In tandem with the 04 LS being the best of the breed (basically an LS6 without the 243 heads), I hope it will be reliable for the life of the car. Especially as I don't do big KMs. The car ran mid 12s in 100% street trim, so it's not slow compared to the new stuff.

I've spent decent coin on suspension, brakes and tyres, plus stuff like 3.9 diff gears, True-Trac, short shifter etc. This all keeps the car feeling modern but it looks like a standard CV8-R. I would not have been happy with the standard Monaro performance wise, this car now feels amazing on the street.

Maintenance / modifications was hit and miss for me. I had two shops I happily used for over a decade, one for maintenance and one for performance work. I didn't ever take this car to a Holden dealer. The car has been extremely reliable. The performance shop got too popular, uncontactable due to work load. The general mechanic shut down. I then had a lot of "interesting" experiences through various shops. I've now got a good mechanic for maintenance and had all the engine stuff redone by a former forum sponsor who got my combo humming again with my chosen cam. It's where I will go from now on.

The downside is without doubt parts. I'm lucky as far as I have not needed much at all so far. However, replacement of Monaro specific parts is difficult. CV8-R parts, nearly impossible as there was only 300 odd 04 cars made. Probably worse than most HSVs. I'm hoping I don't need any of these parts any time soon. However, I have been trying to get those simple door strikers mentioned in the other thread. A few years ago, easy and cheap to get. Now, impossible to buy new. That's the parts future we face. Not alone there, common for performance heroes of the 2000s now, think WRX, EVO etc. We can only hope the aftermarket will step up.

I think if I were looking for a new toy now, unless I was buying something with ultra low KMs, new condition and a known history, I would skip the probable pain with a used Holden/ HSV and buy something else. I particularly like Porsche not only the performance and style, but for the robustness of their cars, and the way they keep up the supply of parts for most older cars. You pay though, and Covid made that worse.

Yes, we definitely have "common ground".
I'm hopeless mechanically, so would definitely require someone to look after it for me. Most of the cars I've bought have been new & serviced by the dealer, which of course isn't the same these days.
And yes, "spare parts",...definitely an issue, & a worry too. Surely with such low ks your door strikers would be ok, and wouldn't they be the same for all VZ variants?....but for sure, Yes, I share the same concerns,....I've been considering a CV8Z & those two issues, service & spare parts are the main issues for me.
The other aspect of my driving, is as I've said, & that as I am of "advancing years", & as Karen's RSQ3 is such a great all round vehicle, and it does go pretty well, (Karen rarely if ever gets beaten at the lights if she's trying), I might just be happy with that, because I know, that being as particular as I am, I would be REALLY stressed if I couldn't get any part necessary to keep the CV8Z in "as new" condition!
Regards, Pickles.

[Red CV8 R]

Yes, we definitely have "common ground".
I'm hopeless mechanically, so would definitely require someone to look after it for me. Most of the cars I've bought have been new & serviced by the dealer, which of course isn't the same these days.
And yes, "spare parts",...definitely an issue, & a worry too. Surely with such low ks your door strikers would be ok, and wouldn't they be the same for all VZ variants?....but for sure, Yes, I share the same concerns,....I've been considering a CV8Z & those two issues, service & spare parts are the main issues for me.
The other aspect of my driving, is as I've said, & that as I am of "advancing years", & as Karen's RSQ3 is such a great all round vehicle, and it does go pretty well, (Karen rarely if ever gets beaten at the lights if she's trying), I might just be happy with that, because I know, that being as particular as I am, I would be REALLY stressed if I couldn't get any part necessary to keep the CV8Z in "as new" condition!
Regards, Pickles.

I work behind a keyboard. While I understand a lot about cars, I'm completely useless with a spanner. I've always had other people (professionals) look after my car. It's generally worked well but there's been some bad times with a few of my car's. There's certainly some less than honest people in the car game.

An example, my door strikers were swapped out when my car was having work done. Nothing I could do but not return to that shop. I also had another impossible to buy CV8-R part swapped on my car too. It's basically impossible to prove. Door strikers are shared across many models. I think as far back as the VR but certainly VT-VZ. Thus, many people have replaced them and exhausted supply. I've tried many Holden dealers and none could assist me with new ones. None of the aftermarket parts places either. There's a shop in the USA reproducing these, however I'm yet to take a punt on them. They're an unknown. I was holding out hope of obtaining genuine items. I'm close to giving up on that. I am like yourself, I find it annoying not being able to find parts to keep the car "as new". It's the only reason I've ever contemplated if I should sell up.

RS Audi are quick! Back in the day, I had mates with lots of different performance cars, including a number of the JDM heroes. Strip performance and street performance were often two different things. The main car to give me a hard time on the street was my mates tickled S3 Audi. The way it could launch on street tyres was impressive. These cars only got faster with the RS3s (same mate later had two of these but we never crossed paths). I can't imagine the newer cars are slower. If you want an easier ownersip experience, I completely understand just staying with the Audi's or the new BMW M cars. All of these would show our old cars a clean pair of heals, while offering warranty, parts availability and easy dealership maintenance. Will they feel special though?

[Smitty]

Some VERY special cars there my friend, Obviously you had some very special times with Holden,.....maybe you could start a thread, "My times with Holden"?....I'm absolutely positive it would be very well received & create a lot of interest on this forum.
My favorite of "Your" cars,....DEFINITELY the 308 HZ Premier Wagon,....haven't seen an original 5L one of those for many years,...must be the scarcest of the scarce.
Regards, Martin.

thanks Martin....

HZ Prem wagons with 5.0 engines and T400 trans ( I think they had back then, not T350s.. too early and not Trimatic) were a fave of the higher level GMH
Manager (Personnel Grade 8,9 and 10.. I was an 8 at that stage) especially those with kids, once word got around just what a good weekend jigger they were
and they were very going towing (boats trailers too) I had to wait a bit for a manual version once the staff order went to Manufacturing, bit rare...

and a 'my time at GMH/Holden' thread? haha... funny that, good mate of mine who lost his job as one of the senior HR/Personnel and Super managers at Holden
when it all went to poo and they shut up shop, has suggested the same thing.

Currently, I am abusing him online via emails .. he and his partner are in Japan skiing (senior guys with long employment history were given generous redundancies)
2 weeks ago, he was in the Austrian Alps Bastard.. those are on my bucket list! He does stir me up when he send me stuff like this

Capture.JPG

[Pickles]

thanks Martin....

HZ Prem wagons with 5.0 engines and T400 trans ( I think they had back then, not T350s.. too early and not Trimatic) were a fave of the higher level GMH
Manager (Personnel Grade 8,9 and 10.. I was an 8 at that stage) especially those with kids, once word got around just what a good weekend jigger they were
and they were very going towing (boats trailers too) I had to wait a bit for a manual version once the staff order went to Manufacturing, bit rare...

and a 'my time at GMH/Holden' thread? haha... funny that, good mate of mine who lost his job as one of the senior HR/Personnel and Super managers at Holden
when it all went to poo and they shut up shop, has suggested the same thing.

Currently, I am abusing him online via emails .. he and his partner are in Japan skiing (senior guys with long employment history were given generous redundancies)
2 weeks ago, he was in the Austrian Alps Bastard.. those are on my bucket list! He does stir me up when he send me stuff like this

Capture.JPG

So, when will your "My Time At Holden" thread commence?!
Regards, Martin.

[Pickles]

I work behind a keyboard. While I understand a lot about cars, I'm completely useless with a spanner. I've always had other people (professionals) look after my car. It's generally worked well but there's been some bad times with a few of my car's. There's certainly some less than honest people in the car game.

An example, my door strikers were swapped out when my car was having work done. Nothing I could do but not return to that shop. I also had another impossible to buy CV8-R part swapped on my car too. It's basically impossible to prove. Door strikers are shared across many models. I think as far back as the VR but certainly VT-VZ. Thus, many people have replaced them and exhausted supply. I've tried many Holden dealers and none could assist me with new ones. None of the aftermarket parts places either. There's a shop in the USA reproducing these, however I'm yet to take a punt on them. They're an unknown. I was holding out hope of obtaining genuine items. I'm close to giving up on that. I am like yourself, I find it annoying not being able to find parts to keep the car "as new". It's the only reason I've ever contemplated if I should sell up.

RS Audi are quick! Back in the day, I had mates with lots of different performance cars, including a number of the JDM heroes. Strip performance and street performance were often two different things. The main car to give me a hard time on the street was my mates tickled S3 Audi. The way it could launch on street tyres was impressive. These cars only got faster with the RS3s (same mate later had two of these but we never crossed paths). I can't imagine the newer cars are slower. If you want an easier ownersip experience, I completely understand just staying with the Audi's or the new BMW M cars. All of these would show our old cars a clean pair of heals, while offering warranty, parts availability and easy dealership maintenance. Will they feel special though?

"Door strikers swapped",....that is simply SHOCKING, there is definitely some scum (the only way to describe such people) around that's for sure. How long did it take for you to notice?...a guy in the Monaro Club mentioned to me that his were worn so He has "rattling doors"......do yours now rattle?. Anyway, an awful experience for you, I don't know how I would handle that,..like I said, Parts & servicing are a major question mark for me, & may be the reason why I decide not to buy.
Thanks, Pickles.

[Red CV8 R]

I noticed when I got home. With the long doors on the Monaro and the car being close to the garage wall, I literally look at the door strikers as I weave myself into the car. The coated versions were there when I left home, not there when I got home, just the bare metal strikers where the coating had worn off and visible screw driver marks. Passenger door the same (it's hardly ever used).

Correct, the coating is there to cushion the doors as the car moves over bumps. Without it, you have metal on metal and you're more likely to get a rattle. My car is pretty tight, so it's not as big an issue as it may be for cars with more kms.

I would like to say that's the worst thing that has happened to my car, but it isn't. For example, it was moved out of the empty car park of a former forum sponsor (by the owner) where I dropped it off and onto the street that was having road work done. My perfect car was then damaged. If that wasn't annoying enough, I was simply told, not my problem, put it through your insurance. Which not only blemished my perfect record, that turned into a mess too. That was very annoying. However, that sort of thing can happen at a dealership too.

So, all this is very much a consideration, especially buying a car that is not known to you. You never know 100% what parts have been fitted, or how it's been treated. However, I have to say that a Monaro seems to be one car that people have put away and kept like new. So, that's a positive.