VF Commodore revealed - Official details and pics- Part 2

[powerd]

I have to say that it is bit depressing that even some people on this forum are writing off the VF as not being good enough before they have even released them into the market. Give it a chance to see how much they have improved it over the VE. I have been a critic of the VEs interior since it was released but the new one looks good and promises much, so let's at least see how the VF actually turns out before we write it off.

Unfortunately the reason why we get gouged on both the Commodore and prestige Euro brands comes down to history and expectation. .................... In the US, they are paying half the price for Merc E550 or a BWM 550i so Holden simply can't sell the Commodore for as much as they do here. It doesn't mean that I like it though as we are just being gouged.

Thank you, Party Pete. At least someone here talks sense. Wherever you live, the price you pay for a non-commoditised product such as a car, is little to do with the cost of production(though that affects producers' margins), but everything to do with what the buyer is willing to pay for the item. And in the US, people aren't willing to pay much because most people don't earn that much (although some earn heaps) and they have had an oversupply of cheap but often crappy local cars for 50 plus years. Europe and other countries are not dissimilar. Have you noticed how, since tariffs have reduced and more brands launch here, imports have reduced in relative price and increased their competitiveness? That is a big part of why Holden has had to dramatically increase the perceived quality and technology of the VF otherwise it would have no future at all. Hopefully they have achieved that and will build it much better than the VE too - they need to.

Mid-late last year I went shopping for a larger wagon with good performance, lots of rear legroom (my teens turned into basketballers when I wasn't looking), good handling particularly for long trips and high equipment levels. I considered a SS Sportwagon (performance, ride and handling are great, I love the way it drives on Aussie roads), but was so put off by the crude interior and basic equipment, plus memories of my last Commodore's surfeit of faults, that I just couldn't do it. I ended up with a Skoda Superb V6 4x4 wagon and the quality and overall completeness is like chalk and cheese. The difference is volume - the platform is used in a huge number of VAG products so they can invest vast amounts of money in its development and the same goes for the CANBUS system, aircon, audio, seats etc, everything reflects having serious money to spend. Skoda alone produces over 500,000 vehicles off this platform(Octavia and Superb, closely related and sharing most major parts) with the rest of the VAG making hugely more sharing similar components. Holden makes, now, less than 40,000pa off the Commodore platform and only some components (engine, gearboxes etc) are high volume global parts. You can experience that investment difference in everything you see and touch, or drive on, in the Skoda. To drive and use, it has the same bank vault solidity and quality of switchgear and materials as a Merc or Audi, (though not the style of the latter). And this is the challenge for Holden - can it go on trying to compete on such dismal volumes by world standards. If you think that the VE is a world class car, then I think you have very little understanding of what that means these days. Building cars is a high fixed cost business, so high volume is the key to being profitable and able to invest for future product improvement.

Ford is caught in the same problem with the Falcon, as its "lesser" models (Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo etc) overtake the Falcon in engineering and technology terms. We can only hope that the Commodore after the VF is built off a fully global platform with decent quality and technology and my guess is that t won't be built in Australia, but that a different, more niche vehicle from the same platform will replace it at Elizabeth.

And by the way, they will equip it and price it however they think the market bear it. But ultimately, after a few months, no matter how hard they try, there will be significant discounts in order to move enough product to keep the plant running, and perhaps make a profit. It promises to be a much better car than the VE.

[jaykay]

I remember back to the release of the VE and we had a number of members that were "snapping" pics of mules on the roads prior to release...seems to be a lot different with the VF

Come on guys get out there and get some pics of the F Series HSV's......

[planetdavo]

Unfortunately Pete, this country is no longer what it once was. Once upon a time people would be proud of a new Holden model coming out, displaying their pride at what this country could achieve, yet these days alleged Holden "fans" are more likely to get on social media and b!tch their little vaginas off over everything "wrong" with it.
Of course without even seeing one in the flesh, or heaven forbid, driving it...

PS: Hope your Skoda is far more reliable than many other people have experienced with VAG cars in recent years. It's not all roses in that big organisation.

[Aus8]

I tend to agree with above posters. It is increasingly common to be looked down upon or laughed at for buying a new Holden. There seems to be a serious image problem. Even people in my family will say oh "not another Daewoo" when Holden adds are on TV. Times have definitely changed and we as V8 enthusiasts are in the minority. People are preferring to spend slightly more to get a better "perceived" brand of car. I don't know why this has happened but the "Holden means a great deal to Australia" TV adds don't cut it no more.

[jaykay]

Unfortunately Pete, this country is no longer what it once was. Once upon a time people would be proud of a new Holden model coming out, displaying their pride at what this country could achieve, yet these days alleged Holden "fans" are more likely to get on social media and b!tch their little vaginas off over everything "wrong" with it.
Of course without even seeing one in the flesh, or heaven forbid, driving it...

PS: Hope your Skoda is far more reliable than many other people have experienced with VAG cars in recent years. It's not all roses in that big organisation.

VAG cars.........they must be a **** to drive

[IJ.]

VAG cars.........they must be a **** to drive

Each one comes with a bucket of Sand in the boot

[Plenty]

/ If you think that the VE is a world class car, then I think you have very little understanding of what that means these days.

In terms of handling and dynamics i would say the VE is a world class car! I definitely agree about interior quality and panel gaps, what is actually quite funny is that quite a selection of said VAG cars happen to make it into the top ten, for the most un-reliable!

The Skoda and the SS you mention are completely different cars in terms of drivetrain and size especially internally, i couldn't see myself looking at a relatively high powered RWD large sub $47,000 car to then choose a near on $60,000 sub 200kw 4WD V6! It makes no sense, i don't go looking at an Audi Q7 then go buy a VW Tiguan. Just sayin.....

[powerd]

The Skoda and the SS you mention are completely different cars in terms of drivetrain and size especially internally, i couldn't see myself looking at a relatively high powered RWD large sub $47,000 car to then choose a near on $60,000 sub 200kw 4WD V6! It makes no sense, i don't go looking at an Audi Q7 then go buy a VW Tiguan. Just sayin.....

Well Plenty, I guess you have never had a proper look or seriously driven a Superb then, particularly a V6 wagon. And then compared it closely to the SSV Sportswagon. Might be worth a try.

The two are quite similar cars and obvious competitors, particularly considering my car requirements. They are about the same size, they are roomy family wagons The Skoda is a bit narrower inside than the Commodore - not an issue as I only need to seat two people in the back for any distance. But the Superb has lots more legroom , as much as a Statesman but is more comfortable with heated seats and better seating etc - remember my basketballer kids and long trips. The boot is larger (not such a big issue) but the flexibility and finish of the rear is hugely better - luggage rails, adjustable solid and flexible barriers, multiple hooks and nets, magnetic bootlight cum rechargeable torch etc etc. Commodore is crude and unfunctional in the rear by comparison. The build quality, materials, equipment, level of thought and finish are worlds apart. An optioned up SSV Sportwagon would still not get near the equipment levels of the Skoda yet at retail is in the same rough price range(55,000-65,000). The Commodore is more powerful and faster accelerating, but the Skoda is quite quick particularly once the speed builds. In the wet, the AWD makes it very quick and all the power is useable without traction loss so it is a much better drive in the wet than the Sportswagon. The Commodore handles better in the dry, though the Skoda is very good and has high traction levels - it is set up more for comfort. It has a much superior gearbox to the Commodore, very fast and smooth - and please don't go on about unreliable DSGs, the wet clutch 6 speeds are proving very reliable. The Skoda is more economical. Its electronic and driver systems are well ahead of the VE, not to mention the interconnectedness of the CANBUS system. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

SO both cars perform similar functions and have their pluses , and there are few larger wagons at around the luxury car tax limit - ones like the Volvo V70 are too dated to consider. Cheaper ones like the Mondeo offer good space but lack sophistication.. The Skoda overall had a lot more pluses than the Commodore. As for reliability, well I have read Euro JD Power surveys for years, talked to owners in Europe etc I suggest you see how highly Skodas rate. I had less problems in 3.5 years and more than 80,000kms in my previous Octavia than I had on the first week of my last SS. 13000kms into the Superb and faultless apart from a loose puddle light - but I think I knocked it. In three years and 130,000kms, my Commodore SS had more problems than all four Japanese cars and a Landrover Discovery(used seriously offroad) had over the previous 9 years and more than 350,000kms. Later VEs may be better, but they still have their faults and I hate that.

Meantime the VF looks like a vast improvement in interior quality and technology. Exterior wise the SS looks good but not sure if I like the Calais so much. If they get the build quality and the reliability up to world standard I would consider buying one for my next car. They need competitive product to survive.

[mrtockley]

Unfortunately Pete, this country is no longer what it once was. Once upon a time people would be proud of a new Holden model coming out, displaying their pride at what this country could achieve, yet these days alleged Holden "fans" are more likely to get on social media and b!tch their little vaginas off over everything "wrong" with it.
Of course without even seeing one in the flesh, or heaven forbid, driving it...

PS: Hope your Skoda is far more reliable than many other people have experienced with VAG cars in recent years. It's not all roses in that big organisation.

I actually agree with Davo here. It's a bit silly writing it off before the full specs have been released. I for one can say that the interior and look of the finish looks amazing (at least in the V Spec variants shown) and although I'm not a fan of the rear, the over all lines do look very nice. The thing that might hurt sales is that there won't be a diesel on offer and in the time of rising fuel costs, I don't know how well the V8's will sell. The V6's are pretty lackluster and it doesn't appear that power or economy specs have changed. The main issue is that people have so much more to chose from now even since the launch of the VE and coughing up $60k is a lot to ask for a car. People expect and demand excellent build quality and service and companies like Hyundai are offering just that. Things like capped servicing and 5 year warranties are all becoming standard for Jap and Korean car makers and then add up resale value and you have to question local vs imported. Holden don't have the freedom they used to know with global architecture becoming the norm - they are very much told what to build now and it's not necessarily going to be for Australian tastes. I don't know the ins and outs of the price differentiation but it will anger people when they hear that we are giving the Chev SS to the states for 10k less and with more features than our cars. Brand loyalty is all but dead now so I hope that they have done this right. My 2 cents.

Kris

[Red CV8 R]

Well Plenty, I guess you have never had a proper look or seriously driven a Superb then, particularly a V6 wagon. And then compared it closely to the SSV Sportswagon. Might be worth a try.

The two are quite similar cars and obvious competitors, particularly considering my car requirements. They are about the same size, they are roomy family wagons The Skoda is a bit narrower inside than the Commodore - not an issue as I only need to seat two people in the back for any distance. But the Superb has lots more legroom , as much as a Statesman but is more comfortable with heated seats and better seating etc - remember my basketballer kids and long trips. The boot is larger (not such a big issue) but the flexibility and finish of the rear is hugely better - luggage rails, adjustable solid and flexible barriers, multiple hooks and nets, magnetic bootlight cum rechargeable torch etc etc. Commodore is crude and unfunctional in the rear by comparison. The build quality, materials, equipment, level of thought and finish are worlds apart. An optioned up SSV Sportwagon would still not get near the equipment levels of the Skoda yet at retail is in the same rough price range(55,000-65,000). The Commodore is more powerful and faster accelerating, but the Skoda is quite quick particularly once the speed builds. In the wet, the AWD makes it very quick and all the power is useable without traction loss so it is a much better drive in the wet than the Sportswagon. The Commodore handles better in the dry, though the Skoda is very good and has high traction levels - it is set up more for comfort. It has a much superior gearbox to the Commodore, very fast and smooth - and please don't go on about unreliable DSGs, the wet clutch 6 speeds are proving very reliable. The Skoda is more economical. Its electronic and driver systems are well ahead of the VE, not to mention the interconnectedness of the CANBUS system. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

SO both cars perform similar functions and have their pluses , and there are few larger wagons at around the luxury car tax limit - ones like the Volvo V70 are too dated to consider. Cheaper ones like the Mondeo offer good space but lack sophistication.. The Skoda overall had a lot more pluses than the Commodore. As for reliability, well I have read Euro JD Power surveys for years, talked to owners in Europe etc I suggest you see how highly Skodas rate. I had less problems in 3.5 years and more than 80,000kms in my previous Octavia than I had on the first week of my last SS. 13000kms into the Superb and faultless apart from a loose puddle light - but I think I knocked it. In three years and 130,000kms, my Commodore SS had more problems than all four Japanese cars and a Landrover Discovery(used seriously offroad) had over the previous 9 years and more than 350,000kms. Later VEs may be better, but they still have their faults and I hate that.

Meantime the VF looks like a vast improvement in interior quality and technology. Exterior wise the SS looks good but not sure if I like the Calais so much. If they get the build quality and the reliability up to world standard I would consider buying one for my next car. They need competitive product to survive.

Would the Skoda Superb be more of a competitor of the V6 Calais V wagon rather than an SS-V V8?

[mrtockley]

Would the Skoda Superb be more of a competitor of the V6 Calais V wagon rather than an SS-V V8?

The thing that scares me off about anything from VAG is the horrendous servicing costs. That and the DSG's are still shit to drive at low speeds. Well it was when I test drove a polo. Plus to get any decent options you get raped with the 'packs' like comfort pack, sports pack etc. The misses just got a new top spec Hyundai i30 and it's got pretty much everything plus capped price servicing and 5 year warranty. Yes it 'may' not be quite at the build level of the German offering but for the coin you get such a fantastic car with so many features. Keyless entry / start, panoramic roof, heated leather, sat nav on a 7" screen & 3 years of maps, Bluetooth and streaming, electric park brake, Xenons, reverse cam and sensors, auto lights and wipers, great little 6 speed auto and a
Diesel that gets over 700 kays. Holden I think have done a really smart thing by offering a heap of good tech on even the base models.

[C4B]

Have the new VF's all got keyless entry/start?

[mrtockley]

Have the new VF's all got keyless entry/start?

I'm not sure about all models but it is definitely listed as a feature. Once you've used keyless entry and start you'll never want to use a key again.

[C4B]

I'm not sure about all models but it is definitely listed as a feature. Once you've used keyless entry and start you'll never want to use a key again.

I would never buy a car without it. It's the best feature.......

[powerd]

Would the Skoda Superb be more of a competitor of the V6 Calais V wagon rather than an SS-V V8?

Yes, probably, Red CV8R, for most people, but for me it would need to be in V and V8 form (the V6 is pretty ordinary despite the power figure) though I prefer the SSV look and feel.

I agree that VW can be pretty bloodthirsty on equipment and pricing issues. But Skoda equipment levels are quite high and although some options are a bit pricey, my Superb comes with pretty much everything. As for the servicing, my Octavia cost a little over $300 for a 15,000 smaller service and a bit over $400 for a major each 30,000 - reasonable I think and my dealer was very diligent. A DSG service is expensive because of the unique oil and filters required($5-600?) but is only done each 60,000. My Superb will be a bit more because of the AWD and greater complexity. Hardly a horror story and pretty good if you have owned a BM, Merc or Alfa.

The low speed shunt that some DSGs have seems to afflict them seems to very with different engine/DSG combinations and even from one car to the next. If it is not good, it often can be improved with a software update. The V6 is quite good, and my car seems to have almost no shunt at all - in fact I would rate it better than most autos. Reversing updill in tricky situations eg into a drive or parking space just takes a bit of getting used to. But I have driven some small engined DSGs which were not so good, but you probably get used to it.

I agree with you Mr Tockley about how good value the Hyundais are these days - I have helped a couple of friends buy them and they are very happy with their choice. Well equipped and built and the drive experience is improving well too. Would be good to see the V8 Genisis here in the future, preferably with a suspension tune for Australia rather than the sloppy US setup.

Meantime, the VF can't come soon enough - I suspect it will have much more appeal to private buyers than the VE.